Doctor X

Magus:

Indeed. That is if a god or gods exist.

Indeed.

Here is where you fall apart. Faith can rest on lies. What do you do when the texts states YHWH has lied?

Methinks you are trying to have an objective basis for your faith--understandable--but I do not think the Bible helps you in that.

Mathetes:

Depends on the story--certainly some thought they were writing "Truth." [Tm.--Ed.] You cite "Kings/Chronicles"--Chronicles rewrites Kings . . . altering bits that he seemed to disagree with. Did he believe what he changed actually happened? Did he think he was truthful? More likely he had a political point.

Similarly, the P writer of Genesis and Exodus spends a lot of time supporting Aaron and the Levites . . . where did he get this "history?"

More intriguing if you believe current scholarship and archeology, the Exodus and Conquest never happened . . . so . . . who thought it up? I am afraid I doubt they "believed it really happened"--they made it up for religious-political purposes. Granted their audience may have believed in it--certainly they eventually did!

--J.D.

Biff the unclean

I'm not so sure Dr X. Look at all of the Xians on this board. They are all making things up that never appear in their religion. Yet they each believe it is true...even though they know it is made up because they are the ones who did the making up.
The Thiests capacity for self deception is unfathomable

cjack

Me: Open to the possibility that I might be wrong. Willing to consider other people's views as valid.

You: Convinced you hold the only and ultimate truth. Unwilling to consider the value of anyone else's view.


Seems pretty simple to me.

If you could muster up enough evidence to convince me that your God exists, I'd be willing to consider it. In fact, I already have. The evidence always seems to be lacking, plus there's never any "new" evidence. Just a book that is not aging well.

I'm agnostic. Willing to admit I don't have all the answers.

You, on the other hand, have made it quite clear that no amount of that pesky "evidence" will change your mind. You've even suggested that reasoning is bad!

You figure "why reason? I've already got all the answers!"


My mind: Open, with skepticism.

Yours: Closed. Tightly. Perhaps permanently.



Is any of this getting through? Or is your faith so fragile that it can't take a few honest questions?

rlogan

Mathetes, and Cjak - it must be conceced that our technology and science have vastly improved our scope of vision. What has not changed though, is the nature of man. Our politicians will create bogeymen to scare us into giving up our rights, for example. They don't believe themselves what they are saying and indeed will manufacture "evidence", distort the truth, prey on emotions, etc.

The flood story in the Bible is not being told around a campfire by compatriots. It is being told by leaders to followers. It seems there is some agreement that the story was modified from earlier versions. Therefore at the very least the person "guilty" of the modification knew he was saying something that was not true. Moreover, it was not done in a vacuum. It wasn't one person changing a story and nobody noticing that it was now Noah instead of Gilgamesh or that eden came before instead of after.

They were sitting around saying "well how many cubits we got to make this thing to hold all the animals in the world (region)?" An agreement is made that it is a dove instead of a bat. Got to be white. Why is it an olive branch instead of a pair of thong panties (yum)? These things were discussed in committee on the basis of their powers in allegory. There were engineers building pyramids at the purported time of the flood and roman engineers would have had a question or two on the Ark.

Many belived, but not universally so.

Now, I think I've been convinced with Dr. X that we don't have to give up "faith" if the Bible has a lot of metaphors. You know, Mom and Dad flat-out lied about santa clause. Can we forgive 'em, Biff? One difference is that when we called 'em on it they fessed up.

Magus, my friend, I'm still wondering if the Bible was "created", so to speak - I don't want to re-write the question.

- Best to everyone on this thread.

Magus55

Quite the opposing standard of this board. Claiming God is a myth as a fact is the more common approach on this board.

And I never said its not possible I couldn't be wrong. I just believe God is the truth.


Well its impossible to find the evidence to convince me God doesn't exist, and sorry if i'm not overwhelmed by the unconvincing evidence surround human evolution , abiogenesis, and the big bang. Just as you are not convinced of the evidence of the Bible or God (i know you claim there is no evidence, but archaeology has confirmed tons of events in the Bible). The validity of evidence is really in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure seebs would say something about evidence being based on individual perception.



Well, there is room for the evidence to change in your case. The natural world is subject to study and change. The only way for my beliefs to be challenged won't happen until at death.



And here I thought you were being sincere and friendly up to this last statement. People on this board just can't end a post without tacking on a witty repartee or insult can they?

Magus55

It was inspired, not created. In certain cases, God guided the authors to write the truth, and gave them inspiration to write it. In other cases ( Genesis, parts of Exodus, Revelation), God directly told the authors what to write, since only He knew what actually happened.

Demigawd

These two statements are not compatible. Care to elaborate further on the contradiction you just presented?

Magus55

I concede that its possible for me to ultimately be wrong, but I don't expect anyone on Earth to ever be able to disprove God, therefore i'll have to wait till death to actually find out if I was wrong.

In a nutshell, i accept I could be wrong, but I'm not holding my breath on anyone ever being to able to disprove my beliefs during my lifetime anyway.

MrDarwin

There it is, right there in a single posting of yours, just a few sentences apart, and you still apparently don't see it.

Do you understand that the existence of God, and your beliefs, are two entirely separate things? Do you see this, Magus?

For the most part, what people have been doing is disproving certain of your beliefs, some of which actually have nothing whatsoever to do with the existence of God. And it seems like some of the disproofs are pretty thorough.

Biff the unclean

You whine and bitch every time a disclaimer isn't put in. Yet you have no problem WITH NO PROOF AT ALL saying that God exists without putting a disclaimer in.
None of us--except YOU--claim to be perfect. If something that we say can be proved to be incorrect we will change what we believe.
Your God is a myth, we have shown him to be a myth just about everyday on this board. Get over it.
Prove he isn't a myth, prove he isn't and we will change. Meanwhile stop your childish tirades, they are unbecoming.