Toto

It is an insulting way of referring to people who do not think there is a good case for a historical Jesus.

If I had more energy, I would edit the phrase out.

jgoodguy

With all due respect, when someone disagrees with a bunch of translators, he sure as heck has the burden of proof.

I am delighted to have spin make his list. Quite unnecessary as my position regards the phrase 'brother of the lord' or 'lord's brother' not 'brother'.

So my challenge to spin is to list out every verse in the Pauline epistles with those terms Maybe the whole new testament. Lets toss in offices in the ancient church with the title of brother of the lord or lord's brother. Perhaps some theological arguments of how a human can be a brother to Christ. I've heard brother in Christ as a term or brotherhood of Christ referring to male Christians, but brother of Christ escapes me.

Here is a key word search of the term lord's brother http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...1=31&bookset=2

ditto for the term brother of the lord. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...1=31&bookset=2

In short, the issue is not 'brother' but the phrases 'lord's brother' or 'brother of the lord'.

dog-on

All very interesting, but we do, in fact have evidence from antiquity, late second/early third century that this passage was disputed. So, before anyone get's too wrapped around trying to interpret Paul's meaning, the first order of business is to show that Paul actually wrote this.

jgoodguy

It is a derogatory term for Jesus myther based off of the US political term birther. It implies that Jesus mythers are irrational.

I am a Jesus agnostic which imeans that the available evidence is too uncertain to determine if there was a historical or mystical Jesus and irrationally is implied by being awake at 4:30 AM to debate the issue.

hjalti

It seems to imply that mythers are what bat-sh** crazy.


This is a strange rebuttal. I just happen to think that Gal 1:19 is a part of a later interpolation, but I don't see how that would imply that the interpolator was lying if this is to be understood as James being the brother of Jesus. Then we would simply have this belief in a James the brother of Jesus in the 2nd century.

And why is the interpolation claim improbable? Or is "this claim" only that the interpolator was "lying" not that it's an interpolation'


Wait a minute, we would never expect a later Christian to write that Paul was opposed and condemned Peter? What about Marcionites?

jgoodguy

The interpolators strike again.

I think showing Paul actually wrote anything is a bit difficult. Interpolations are an order more difficult.

jgoodguy

The problem with interpolations is showing they actually happened, not they are possible.

I should have written that the term birther is inflammatory. :angry:

dog-on

Like I said, the evidence shows that this passage was disputed in antiquity. This is not something I pulled out of my ass. So, unless we deal with all of the evidence, all we will end up with are sore monkeys...

hjalti

It's actually quite easy to show that Gal 1.19 is an interpolation:

1.If Gal 1.19 isn't an interpolation, then Jesus was an actual historical person.
2. We know that can't be true, Jesus was a god who existed in the heavens.
-> Gal 1.19 is an interpolation.

spin

In other words you are merely being arbitrary and fixing your claim so it cannot be falsified because it is not based on any verifiable evidence.

We are working with Paul so as to understand how he uses language. We can be sure of some coherence on his part.

The translation "the lord's brother" is tendentious, as it involves an English structure which means something a little more specific than "the brother of the lord".

No it's not, unless you want to say that you cannot justify your sense any other way than to say you know what Paul means when he says brother in this specific example without being able to justify it from the way Paul has used the term every other place. The burden is for you to show that Paul is using "brother" differently. Get on with it and stop the special pleading.