Amaleq13

This is essentially an admission that you have nothing but your faith to support your position. The texts just don't say what you want them to say. There isn't even a hint of disapproval, let alone "discipline", for Elisha's calling down of a fatal bear attack on children.

The God described in Hebrew Scriptures simply isn't the God in which you have faith so you are compelled to change what the texts actually state. Your new thread will only make that more obvious. :wave:

sugarhitman

so then why also the silence of Noah's drukeness (a sin) Jepthah sacrificing his daughter (a gross sin) and many others. God also gave us common sense to figure out some things on our own. :wave:

Amaleq13

Yes, those are two other examples of the God in Hebrew Scripture failing to confirm your beliefs about what constitutes a "sin".

The "common sense" you believe God gave me suggests that there is no reason to assume the authors of either ancient story should agree with your notions of what constitutes a "sin".

Cege

Noah's drunkness isn't noted as a sin in the context of the story. The sin falls on his son, instead.

The story of Jepthah doesn't indicate that he did wrong in sacrificing his daughter because he did it only to fulfill a vow he made to God. The message is be careful what you vow to God, because vows must be fulfilled.

Lot's daughters aren't condemned as sinful for getting pregnant by their father. The story reads that it was a necessity after the destruction of Sodom and Gommora. Incest isn't condemned between Adam & Eve's children, either. Not until law is given to Moses did God announce that incest was sin.

storytime

Thanks Malachi. Just goes to show how "truth" was twisted in its time. Or would that be one lie piled upon another for effect?

:wave:

storytime

Read the story. Ishmael did not need a promise of blessing because God told Abraham, "I have already blessed him. Ishmael shall become a great nation." As Isaac was not even born at that time, "the promise" of blessing was issued to him. After Isaac, the promise was issued to Jacob where it ended in that "one seed", name. Why did the promise become fulfilled in Isaac's one seed called Jacob? Because, the brother of Jacob whose name was Esau, God hated. Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau "forever"? It might have had something to do with Esau turning from his own tradition of Syrian in house of Abraham, to another people called Edomites. "Esau is Edomites". The chain of command for inheritance was broken through Esau's taking himself an Edomite wife and Jacob and Esau could not inherit the same land. Just as Ishmael and Isaac could not inherit the same land. There were rules that applied to inheritance. Not that anyone was cursed, but so that the purpose of allowing each descendant their rightful allotment of "blessing".

Whoever wrote the story was trying to set as record the reason for Jacob being the one seed of promised blessing. And after Israelites entered the land of promise, namely the land of Cananites[Canaan], (the people God always hated), as ordered by Moses, they began their slaughter of people in order to take their land. "The promise" was based on the ability of the Israelites to take the land from the Canaanites. And the scribe who wrote the story gave credit to the Israelite god. So you can see how the Israelites took the land "by the sword" as they "ripped up" pregnant women so that offspring could not grow up to take revenge on them. The Israelites were said to be skillful "in the sword" and probably also beheaded the Canaanites. The Israelites are not portrayed as having any conscienceousness as they were commanded to kill and slaughter by their god. Blood was not on their hands[sin] as they obeyed the commands of their god.

Moses was also called "god". Read the story.

"Truth" is, unless you convert to the Judaism of Christ, for he said "salvation is of the Jews", and become circumcised and obey the commands of law set for Jews and converts, you cannot enter into that community called "kingdom of God". There's only one seed in the kingdom and it ain't called "Gentile", and what you're trying to do is sneak through the back door.

Now, IF you really love this religion, the Jews, the whole thing, then you won't have any problem converting to show you REALLY love the god of the bible story. Then as the story says, you will be given a new name and the Jews will rejoice with you, and you will become as they are in name and called no longer a Gentile, but A JEW.

So... when you gonna convert? You do want to be called "blessed" don't you? I'm not proseltyzing, I'm only pointing out to you the required protocols, which you have evidently overlooked.

JEST2ASK

A little help here as I am lost .... Bush caused the death of innocent Iraqis ... Yet God was justified in drowning babies (because they were not innocent) :huh:

Jack the Bodiless

Does your own "disobedience" count here? I'm referring to your rejection of the Bible by fabricating a story about where Elisha's bears came from.

The Biblical God is so nasty that even YOU can't accept him.
Another made-up doctrine? Nothing here says that kids go to Heaven (indeed, none of these children could have: because Jesus said "there is no way to the Father but through me", and he hadn't been born yet). And the whole point of "original sin" is that NOBODY is "innocent". Furthermore, the incident you refer to is another Biblical contradiction: elsewhere, God punishes multiple generations specifically for the sins of their parents.

Indeed, you provided another example earlier in this thread:
Caanan had done nothing wrong. His "crime", and the "crime" of all his descendants, was simply that he was Ham's son.

And why can't you "Christians" agree with each other on something so basic? This is what Robert Byers said:
Sygarhitman, Byers is as guilty as you are of promoting the made-up doctrine that "kids go to Heaven", but this he did not make up.

Darklighter

Many others have already sufficiently answered your points in my absence, so I won't re-hash. Bottom line here, sugarhitman, It is what it is. You can't rationalize what happened in the OT with god's love WITHOUT making assumptions and ADDING qualifications to parts of the story (that wern't there to begin with). For example, I've studied the Bible for years and have even shared your perspective (on certain things), but I've never found anything that could back up your assertion that evil forces were "using" Elisha.

So, were evil forces "using" god when he ordered the death of defenseless women and children? Or are humans only succeptable? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If the bible can't stand on it's own, let it fall. Stop propping it up with caveats and rationalizations.

WVIncagold

Can you please explain the difference of blessing and a curse. Sounds to me like your trying to impose your will on another human being against their will. Personally i see no difference. Except of course neither happens to be real. I had to laugh when in all honesty you actually said curses are real its the same as saying magic potions are real or unicorns are real. Little eye of newt for your spiritus?
Ninja Matrix bears and Spiderman this is a great thread. :notworthy:
As to the OP how would i know it was god? So no i would not do an entities dirty work. If it is so powerful let it go kill them. I would figure the entity to be less than great and impersonating an all powerful god rather than speaking the word. Of course the OP says we know it is god the answer would still be the same. "go do your own dirty work!" and if it lands me in some hell then so be it.