Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-23-2013, 09:33 PM

Quote:

"They of Basilides," says Clement, "celebrate His Baptism by a preliminary night-service of readings; and they say that 'the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar' means the fifteenth day of the month Tybi." It was then that the Father "in the likeness of a dove"--which they explained as meaning the Minister or Holy Spirit--came upon Him. In "the fifteenth [year] of Tib[erius]" we have, then, perhaps an interesting glimpse into the workshop of the "historicizers." [Fragments of a Faith Forgotten p. 278]

Here is the original passage in the first book of Clement's Stromata:

Quote:

And our Lord was born in the twenty-eighth year, when first the census was ordered to be taken in the reign of Augustus. And to prove that this is true, it is written in the Gospel by Luke as follows: "And in the fifteenth year, in the reign of Tiberius Caesar, the word of the Lord came to John, the son of Zacharias." And again in the same book: "And Jesus was coming to His baptism, being about thirty years old," and so on. And that it was necessary for Him to preach only a year, this also is written: "He hath sent Me to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." This both the prophet spake, and the Gospel. Accordingly, in fifteen years of Tiberius and fifteen years of Augustus; so were completed the thirty years till the time He suffered. And from the time that He suffered till the destruction of Jerusalem are forty-two years and three months; and from the destruction of Jerusalem to the death of Commodus, a hundred and twenty-eight years, ten months, and three days. From the birth of Christ, therefore, to the death of Commodus are, in all, a hundred and ninety-four years, one month, thirteen days. And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon. And the followers of Basilides hold the day of his baptism as a festival, spending the night before in readings.

And they say that it was the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, the fifteenth day of the month Tubi; and some that it was the eleventh of the same month, And treating of His passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the sixteenth year of Tiberius, on the twenty-fifth of Phamenoth; and others the twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi and others say that on the nineteenth of Pharmuthi the Saviour suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi.

What is interesting of course is that no one has ever been able to explain why forty two and three months separate the beginning of Jesus's ministry and the destruction of Jerusalem. This would imply that the gospel was written in Alexandria for an Egyptian audience.

Vorkosigan · 02-23-2013, 11:28 PM

Quote:

This would imply that the gospel was written in Alexandria for an Egyptian audience.

I miss the connection here....

stephan huller · 02-23-2013, 11:41 PM

Well if Mead is right then the gospel measured the year in Egyptian months (Tybi = the fifth month). Why would the gospel writer have used Egyptian months to mark the beginning of the gospel narrative?

The only question now is Mead correct in his analysis. I am not sure. He overstates what Clement tells us with respect to the gospel itself. Nowhere in the account in Clement does it say the Basilideans believed in the Holy Spirit came down as a dove.

stephan huller · 02-24-2013, 12:02 AM

Mead backs up his assertion with a citation of material from the Pistis Sophia. Apparently the tradition is that Jesus descended and ascended on the same day (i.e. a full year ministry):

Quote:

It came to pass then, when that light-power had come down over Jesus, that it gradually surrounded him entirely. Then Jesus ascended or soared into the height, shining most exceedingly in an immeasurable light. And the disciples gazed after him and none of them spake, until he had reached unto heaven; but they all kept in deep silence. This then came to pass on the fifteenth day of the moon, on the day on which it is full in the month Tybi.

The confusion of the powers and the great earthquake.It came to pass then, when Jesus had reached the heaven, after three hours, that all the powers of the heaven fell into agitation, and all were set in motion one against the other, they and all their æons and all their regions and all their orders, and the whole earth was agitated and all they who dwell thereon. And all men who are in the world fell into agitation, and also the disciples, and all thought: Peradventure the world will be rolled up.

And all the powers in the heavens ceased not from their agitation, they and the whole world, and all were moved one against the other, from the third hour of the fifteenth day of the moon of Tybi until the ninth hour of the morrow. And all the angels and their archangels and all the powers of the height, all sang praises to the interiors of the |7. interiors, so that the whole world heard their voices, without their ceasing till the ninth hour of the morrow. http://gnosis.org/library/pistis-sophia/ps007.htm

Apparently this section represents the close to the opening words of the Pistis Sophia. The text begins as a kind of revelation after the gospel apparently ended or something like that. It represents 'additional teachings' or 'revelations' from Jesus to his followers. I wish someone other than a theosophist had translated the text into English ...

stephan huller · 02-24-2013, 12:23 AM

Actually I take my hesitation back with Mead's retelling of the material. Apparently Smith agrees with him:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ufg...gospel&f=false

Here's how he translates the same material:

Quote:

They of Basilides (οἱ ἀπὸ Β.) celebrate the day of His Baptism by a preliminary night-service of [Scripture] readings (προδιανυκτερεύοντες ἀναγνώσεσι); and they say that the 'fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar' (Luk_3:1) is (or means) the fifteenth day of the [Egyptian] month Tybi while some [make the day] the eleventh of the same month."

Clearly then Smith agrees with the general sense of the passage - the Basilidians point to the correct reading as 'fifteenth of Tybi.' Also Mead is right in emphasizing the descent of the dove because as Smith notes "it is briefly stated in the Excerpta (16 p. 972) that the dove of the Baptism is said by the Basilidians (οἱ ἀπὸ Β.) to be the Minister (ὁ διάκονος). And the same association is implied in what Clement urges elsewhere (Strom. ii. p. 449): "If ignorance belongs to the class of good things why is it brought to an end by amazement [i.e. the amazement of the Archon] and [so] the Minister that they speak of [αὐτοῖς] is superfluous and the Proclamation and the Baptism: if ignorance had not previously existed the Minister would not have descended nor would amazement have seized the Archon as they themselves say." This language taken in conjunction with passages already cited from Hippolytus (c. 26) implies that Basilides regarded the Baptism as the occasion when Jesus received "the Gospel" by a Divine illumination.

mountainman · 02-24-2013, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This would imply that the gospel was written in Alexandria for an Egyptian audience.

Quote:

"They of Basilides," says Clement, "celebrate His Baptism ....

////

And the followers of Basilides hold the day of his baptism as a festival, spending the night before in readings.

And they say that it was the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, the fifteenth day of the month Tubi...

I read this as Clement wants us to believe that Basildes and his followers were a group of (gnostic) Christians who used an Egyptian reckoning to celebrate the baptism of Clement's (canonical) jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

Basilides (Greek: Βασιλείδης) was an early Gnostic religious teacher in Alexandria, Egypt[1] who taught from 117–138 AD,[* 1] and was a pupil of either Menander,[2] or an alleged interpreter of St. Peter named Glaucias.[3] The Acts of the Disputation with Manes state that for a time he taught among the Persians.[4] He is believed to have written over two dozen books of commentary on the Christian Gospel (now all lost) entitled Exegetica,[2] making him one of the earliest Gospel commentators. Only fragments of his works are preserved that supplement the knowledge furnished by his opponents ...

Vorkosigan · 02-24-2013, 12:30 AM

Ah! Thanks. Well.... what you're getting is how the Basilides read the gospel, not necessarily what it actually said.

Vorkosigan

stephan huller · 02-24-2013, 12:33 AM

Here is the original Greek:

Quote:

Οἱ δὲ ἀπὸ Βασιλείδου καὶ τοῦ βαπτίσματος αὐτοῦ τὴν ἡμέραν ἑορτάζουσι προδιανυκτερεύοντες <ἐν> ἀναγνώσεσι. φασὶ δὲ εἶναι τὸ πεντεκαιδέκατον ἔτος Τιβερίου Καίσαρος τὴν πεντεκαιδεκάτην τοῦ Τυβὶ μηνός, τινὲς δὲ αὖ τὴν ἑνδεκάτην τοῦ αὐτοῦ μηνός. τό τε πάθος αὐτοῦ ἀκριβολογούμενοι φέρουσιν οἳ μέν τινες τῷ ἑκκαιδεκάτω ἔτει Τιβερίου Καίσαρος Φαμενὼθ κεʹ, οἳ δὲ Φαρμουθὶ κε [1.21.146.1 - 3]

And here is the contentious sentence:

Quote:

φασὶ δὲ εἶναι τὸ πεντεκαιδέκατον ἔτος Τιβερίου Καίσαρος τὴν πεντεκαιδεκάτην τοῦ Τυβὶ μηνός, τινὲς δὲ αὖ τὴν ἑνδεκάτην τοῦ αὐτοῦ μηνός

Quote:

they say that the 'fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar' the fifteenth day of the month Tybi while some the eleventh of the same month

Yes I think Mead might be right. The text might be saying that the Basilideans argued for 'the fifteenth of Tubi' as the reading instead of 'the fifteenth of Tiberius Caesar.'

Here is Schneemelcher's summary of the Egyptian context of both the Pistis Sophia and the Basilidean gospel http://books.google.com/books?id=TDW...20Tybi&f=false

spin · 02-24-2013, 12:42 AM

1. You've talked about this passage from Clement three times now without ever given a proper reference to it. (Looks like 4th time lucky. If I were Genghiz Khan, I'd have your right hand.)

2. The second and 3rd rows of hieroglyphics are turned 180° from their proper orientation.

3. What those of Basilides say is not gospel. It could just be a gnostic transformation of 15th of the rule of Tiberius Caesar to 15th of Tybi that Clement records.

I also cannot see a connection other than what appears to be a gnostic development. Do you think the gospel would for some reason be supplying a month without a year?

stephan huller · 02-24-2013, 12:49 AM

I am really tired. But the other factor to consider is that Clement specifically says that it is 28 years and 4 months from the one year ministry of Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem. How can that be 'fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar'?

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02-23-2013, 11:41 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Well if Mead is right then the gospel measured the year in Egyptian months (Tybi = the fifth month). Why would the gospel writer have used Egyptian months to mark the beginning of the gospel narrative? The only question now is Mead correct in his analysis. I am not sure. He overstates what Clement tells us with respect to the gospel itself. Nowhere in the account in Clement does it say the Basilideans believed in the Holy Spirit came down as a dove.

02-24-2013, 12:30 AM	#7
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Ah! Thanks. Well.... what you're getting is how the Basilides read the gospel, not necessarily what it actually said. Vorkosigan

02-24-2013, 12:42 AM	#9
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	1. You've talked about this passage from Clement three times now without ever given a proper reference to it. (Looks like 4th time lucky. If I were Genghiz Khan, I'd have your right hand.) 2. The second and 3rd rows of hieroglyphics are turned 180° from their proper orientation. 3. What those of Basilides say is not gospel. It could just be a gnostic transformation of 15th of the rule of Tiberius Caesar to 15th of Tybi that Clement records. I also cannot see a connection other than what appears to be a gnostic development. Do you think the gospel would for some reason be supplying a month without a year?

02-24-2013, 12:49 AM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am really tired. But the other factor to consider is that Clement specifically says that it is 28 years and 4 months from the one year ministry of Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem. How can that be 'fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar'?

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