Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tigers! · 02-23-2006, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Nope.

Neither could I.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-23-2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

Neither could I.

Then how could you expect anyone to force themselves to believe in Christian doctrine?

How could God expect it?

Tigers! · 02-23-2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Then how could you expect anyone to force themselves to believe in Christian doctrine?

How could God expect it?

I, nor anyone else, could force you to believe the Christian doctrine. As to expectation I would like you to believe but it must be done willingly by you.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-23-2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

I, nor anyone else, could force you to believe the Christian doctrine. As to expectation I would like you to believe but it must be done willingly by you.

What I'm trying to get at is that it can't be done willingly. That is, it can't be done as an act of will. Belief is not something controlled by personal volition.

aChristian · 02-23-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

So what should I do when my conscience tells me the God of the Bible is depraved, egotistical and amoral? My conscience tells me that if such a God exists, it is morally wrong to worship him. Is my conscience wrong? If my conscience is wrong does that mean I can't tell right from wrong? If I can't tell right from wrong, how can I be held accountable for mora; choices?

You need to read my earlier post on this. Yes, of course your conscience is wrong if it tells you those things. You have seared it and that is your fault. If you spend some time with Jesus, he will clean you heart, give you a clear thinking mind, and make your conscience sensitive to the truth.

aChristian · 02-23-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

...Except YOU, apparently.

(Note to self: NEVER underestimate the extent of any Christian's igorance of his/her "holy book")

Ho-hum. NEWSFLASH: according to the BIBLE, Noah got drunk and crashed out naked in his tent (Genesis 9:21).

Other good things that righteous folks do: genocide, baby-killing, human sacrifice, punishment of innocents for the crimes of others, taking captive girls as sex-slaves, forcing unmarried rape victims to marry their rapists. You can research those yourself, consider it a homework assignment.

I just realized that you thought I didn't know you were talking about Noah originally. NEWSFLASH: I did. The Bible is honest about history, including the sins of the most righteous person of the day. Again though, your comment proves that you have the ability to recognize the wrongness of the sins you have listed.

Tigers! · 02-23-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

What I'm trying to get at is that it can't be done willingly. That is, it can't be done as an act of will. Belief is not something controlled by personal volition.

If belief is not in some way (however loosely) tied to personal volition then how could one ever change their mind or opinion on anything?
If you decide that something is correct that you previously thought/believed to be incorrect is it not an act of will to change your view?
Note the converse applies too i.e. previously thought to be correct but now thought incorrect.

DaMan121 · 02-23-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Again though, your comment proves that you have the ability to recognize the wrongness of the sins you have listed

The ability is due to the fact modern society has evolved from the flawed civilizations of two thousand years ago. Racism, mysogony, slavery, etc are looked down upon - they are celebrated in the bible.

Quote:

The Bible is honest about history, including the sins of the most righteous person of the day.

Well, he was better than the other righteous person of the day - atleast he didnt try to get his daughters raped by a mob, then have sex with them afterward - dunno, maybe they were really really hot :devil1:

Doug Shaver · 02-23-2006, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

If you decide that something is correct that you previously thought/believed to be incorrect is it not an act of will to change your view?

"If you decide" begs the question. If I confront irrefutable proof that something I thought was true is actually false, then I will change my belief whether I want to or not. There is no deciding to it.

If I am resolved not to change my mind, and if someone tells me that he has irrefutable proof that I am wrong, and if I suspect that he might indeed have such proof, then I could decide not to examine it in order to avoid the possibility of having my belief changed. So I'm not arguing that the will is irrelevant to what one believes. All I'm saying is that it does not determine what we will believe.

Doug Shaver · 02-23-2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Yes, of course your conscience is wrong if it tells you those things.

So, nobody with a properly functioning conscience can think that you're wrong?

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