Rumplestiltskin

I'm pretty sure it's all one big guildtrip thing. The term "Word of God" in itself implie that the identity of a scource's message is more important than the content of it's message. A position that's that stupid needs to be held in place by brute force to sustain. The crusifix symbolism is one way of applying force.

Craigart14

I have no doubt that crucifixion hurts like hell. However, I have read that many victims lasted two or three days on the cross, and that the Romans usually broke their legs after a while so that their bodies would sag, hastening suffocation, which was the usual cause of death. However, compared to the suffering of millions of cancer victims--especially those who lived and died before morphine, surgery, radiation therapy and chemo--it doesn't seem like much. I would also like to point out that to people in the patriarchal cultures of the Axial Age, the sacrifice of one's son would be seen as an unthinkably normous gift because a) male children were considered much more precious than female children; b) a son would grow into the responsibility of taking care of his parents in their old age, when they could no longer take care of themselves, while a daughter would marry and take care of someone else's parents in their old age, thus making the raising of a daughter analogous to "watering someone else's garden"; c) a son would carry on the family name; d) childbirth being pretty dicey in those days, one's first son might well be one's only son. We can see this patriarchal principle operating in Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac. It was a huge test, and Abe passed. But god's ways are not ours, are they? Christianity tells us, first, that god's "gift" of his "only begotten" son is proof of his love for us. But wasn't that "gift" more like a loan? Didn't god get his son back after 33 years? Apologists sometimes explain YEC by quoting the OT scripture (can't remember chapter and verse, someone help?) that says that a day, to god, is as a thousand years, which makes his son's 33-year absence from home roughly equivalent to five minutes, or one quick shower. Also, at the baptism of Jesus, John the Baptist tells the "viper's brood" of approaching Pharisees that god can raise children out of the stones on the ground if he wants to. So this imaginary being lends us his imaginary son, whom he could replace or resurrect at any time, for five minutes (about half a second of which takes place on the cross), and that justifies earthquakes, floods, typhoons, lightning strikes, shark attacks, cancer, aids, starvation, and schistosomiasis? Sorry. I don't think it pays for my dead dog.

Craig

Infidelettante

You are incorrect theoscholar about the effect of the sacrifice. I ask everyone to bear with me for a moment. I�m going somewhere with this.

I John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." The efficacy of the atonement demands that all sin be paid for for all time. The sacrifice on the cross paid the price for all human sin not just the sins of believers.

As sin was passed to all people by the sin of Adam so is all sin paid for by the sacrifice of the second Adam, Jesus Christ. Most people, and sadly most Christians, think it is sin that sends them to hell. This is not doctrinally correct. Sin, having been paid for is not imputed to us. II Corinthians 5:19, �To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;�� Sin not imputed has no power to condemn. You might also read the third chapter of Paul�s epistle to the Romans.

But, if sin does not condemn what sends the sinner to hell. The sinner is consigned to hell because he is not as righteous as God. Romans 5:17 �For if by one man�s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ.� Returning to II Corinthians 5 we read in verse 21, �For he {God} has made him {Jesus} who knew no sin; to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.�

How does one attain God�s righteousness? Philippians 3:9, �And be found in him not having mine own righteous, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith,� And, Romans 4:5, �But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteous.�


Let�s recap:
1) Jesus died to pay for the sins of everyone, not just believers.

2) Sin is not imputed to anyone.

3) God�s righteous is required for salvation.

4) Gods righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus Christ as to his sacrifice.

Questions
A When and where did the standard to which we were to be held become God�s righteousness?

B Is it God�s righteous that prevents people from entering Heaven?

C If God does not impute sin to people why does he keep them out of Heaven?

D If the sacrifice paid for sin for all time, including the time prior to the sacrifice, was Jesus able to exist as God on Earth because there was not then and has never been sinful people from whom he, Jesus/God, was separated?

E Why could God not have delayed the sacrifice for eternity and so avoid condemning billions of people and yet remain just and merciful by reason of his intent to actually perform the sacrifice?

JT