Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Keith&Co. · 09-10-2010, 09:18 AM

The end of the last book that Moses supposedly wrote. Describes his funeral.

Some say that he wrote most of it, but an assistant filled in the last bit.

Problem with that is the description of Moses as the most humble of men, even to this day.

Does it make any sense for an eyewitness to describe someone with 'even to this day?' That seems, to me, to denote the passage of quite a bit of time. Rather than saying my kid won a race in Cross Country match last week, and set a record that hasn't been bested even to this day.

Petergdi · 09-10-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

I don't see how it could mean that. The simplest explanation is that Jesus was mistaken. I think that most Christians have little difficulty with the idea that Jesus could be mistaken.

Peter.

Given all the theological theories (full and partial, preterism, allegorical meaning of terms, etc.) away the hidden meaning of this generation, I am surprised you should say that Christians have difficulty with saying Jesus was wrong. In fact I know only of one Christian commentator, C.S.Lewis, who admitted Jesus was in error due to the limitations of his incarnation (Mk 13:32). If you could show me a Christian theological argument admitting Jesus' error I would be grateful.

Best,
Jiri

I should have better said that human limitations on Christ's knowledge are not a problem for Christianity. You are quite right that many (perhaps most) orthodox commentators do try to explain away any and all mistakes that Jesus made. I'm pretty sure that C.S. Lewis was by no means alone in refusing to do this, but it may take a while for me to find more references. I will try to make a note of them when I find them .

Peter.

trendkill · 09-10-2010, 10:37 AM

Not knowing everything is one thing; preaching erroneous doctrine is another, much more unorthodox view of what Jesus did. Not knowing "the day or the hour" would be an example of the the former; saying "this generation will not pass away" when in fact the generation did pass away would be the latter.

bacht · 09-10-2010, 02:07 PM

How can you say, `We are wise,
and the law of the LORD is with us'?
But, behold, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8.8

Igor Trip · 09-10-2010, 02:36 PM

This should be mandatory at every Christian funeral.:devil1:

Matthew 8:21/22
Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

arnoldo · 09-10-2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor Trip

This should be mandatory at every Christian funeral.:devil1:

Matthew 8:21/22
Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

Google "aramaic idioms" and this verse may be seen in a different light.

aa5874 · 09-10-2010, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Peter:

I agree that Jesus was mistaken is the simplest explanation for this and several other saying recorded in the Bible where Jesus made an erroneous prediction. This of course requires a real Jesus to make the mistake. A wholly fictional Jesus that some here imagine would not have been written making obvious errors in his predictions.

The best explanation for all the facts is that some guy named Jesus made some prediction that were too well known to ignore and they turned out to be false. Christian apologists are still trying to explain them away. They want to believe he was more than just a man.

Steve

Your explanation is NOT the best at all.

Jesus, if he did exist as just a man, would already have been known to be a fraud when he claimed he would resurrect on the third day after his death.

Why would Jews worship a FALSE prophet as a God?

Why would Jews believe a false prophet was a Messiah?

Why would Jews worship a man as a God.

There is no historical evidence that Jews would have worshiped a man as a God.

Philo and Josephus both claimed Jews do not worship men as God.

The Emperor Caligula in "On Embassy to Gaius" claimed ONLY the people of the Jewish nation did NOT worship him as a God.

The mere idea that a Jewish man who lived in Galilee was eventually worshiped as a God by Jews and Roman citizens BEFORE the Fall of the Temple is just an historical improbabilty not supported by any EVIDENCE external of apologetics.

This is Tacitus in "Histories" 5.

Quote:

...the Jews have purely mental conceptions of Deity, as one in essence.

They call those profane who make representations of God in human shape out of perishable materials.

They believe that Being to be supreme and eternal, neither capable of representation, nor of decay.

They therefore do not allow any images to stand in their cities, much less in their temples.

This flattery is not paid to their kings, nor this honour to our Emperors.

A far better explanation based on the evidence of antiquity is that Jesus of Nazareth was just a story, fabricated out of Hebrew Scripture, written AFTER the fall of the Temple and well away from Judea which was simply believed to be true by the DUPED.

Joan of Bark · 09-10-2010, 09:55 PM

Christians can explain away any controversial passage by employing verbal gymnastics and turning every sentence into a pretzel. A prime example is Song of Songs, which that twit Bernard of Clairvaux turned into an allegory for Christ's love of the Church -- never mind that it was composed centuries before Jesus was born!

Of course these apologetics aren't convincing if you're not a believer: in fact, they're ridiculous. But faith conquers logic and common sense every time.

GenesisNemesis · 09-10-2010, 10:00 PM

But, how could Jesus have been mistaken, when all of the prophecies that are in the Bible have been fulfilled in the Bible? :hylidae:

My favorite "damning verse" anyways is "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no god".

JoeWallack · 09-11-2010, 08:27 AM

JW:

John 13:27

Quote:

And after the soap, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly.

Pretty bad, plus the Pope has never Apologized for this one. I've heard that JP Holding is the offspring.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

09-10-2010, 02:07 PM	#14
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	How can you say, `We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. Jeremiah 8.8

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09-10-2010, 09:18 AM	#11
Keith&Co. Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pittsfield, Mass Posts: 24,500	The end of the last book that Moses supposedly wrote. Describes his funeral. Some say that he wrote most of it, but an assistant filled in the last bit. Problem with that is the description of Moses as the most humble of men, even to this day. Does it make any sense for an eyewitness to describe someone with 'even to this day?' That seems, to me, to denote the passage of quite a bit of time. Rather than saying my kid won a race in Cross Country match last week, and set a record that hasn't been bested even to this day.

09-10-2010, 10:37 AM	#13
trendkill Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Northern California Posts: 7,558	Not knowing everything is one thing; preaching erroneous doctrine is another, much more unorthodox view of what Jesus did. Not knowing "the day or the hour" would be an example of the the former; saying "this generation will not pass away" when in fact the generation did pass away would be the latter.

09-10-2010, 02:36 PM	#15
Igor Trip Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: uk Posts: 360	This should be mandatory at every Christian funeral.:devil1: Matthew 8:21/22 Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

09-10-2010, 09:55 PM	#18
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Christians can explain away any controversial passage by employing verbal gymnastics and turning every sentence into a pretzel. A prime example is Song of Songs, which that twit Bernard of Clairvaux turned into an allegory for Christ's love of the Church -- never mind that it was composed centuries before Jesus was born! Of course these apologetics aren't convincing if you're not a believer: in fact, they're ridiculous. But faith conquers logic and common sense every time.

09-10-2010, 10:00 PM	#19
GenesisNemesis Contributor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A pale blue oblate spheroid. Posts: 20,351	But, how could Jesus have been mistaken, when all of the prophecies that are in the Bible have been fulfilled in the Bible? :hylidae: My favorite "damning verse" anyways is "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no god".

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