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Old 01-11-2009, 09:40 AM   #111
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Looking at MacDonald's book now. So far as I can see, he makes no such claim. But I may have missed it.
I found Carrier saying it about MacDonald's book over at IIDB:
Though Mark's Greek is extremely colloquial, not at all in high literary style, this itself is surely a grand and ingenious transvaluation of Homer: whereas the great epics were archaic and difficult, only to be mastered by the educated elites, only to be understood completely by those with access to glossaries and commentaries and marked-up critical editions, Mark not only updated Homer's values and theology, but inverted its entire character as an elite masterpiece, by making his own epic simple, thoroughly understandable by the common, the poor, the masses, and lacking in the overt pretension and cleverness of poetic verse, written in plain, ordinary language.
The closest statement I could find in MacDonald is the following:

"The earliest evangelist disguised his dependence by writing in prose, altering Homeric vocabulary, rearranging episodes, and borrowing as well from Jewish scriptures." (p 6)
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:57 AM   #112
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Looking at MacDonald's book now. So far as I can see, he makes no such claim. But I may have missed it.
I found Carrier saying it about MacDonald's book over at IIDB:
Though Mark's Greek is extremely colloquial, not at all in high literary style, this itself is surely a grand and ingenious transvaluation of Homer: whereas the great epics were archaic and difficult, only to be mastered by the educated elites, only to be understood completely by those with access to glossaries and commentaries and marked-up critical editions, Mark not only updated Homer's values and theology, but inverted its entire character as an elite masterpiece, by making his own epic simple, thoroughly understandable by the common, the poor, the masses, and lacking in the overt pretension and cleverness of poetic verse, written in plain, ordinary language.
The closest statement I could find in MacDonald is the following:

"The earliest evangelist disguised his dependence by writing in prose, altering Homeric vocabulary, rearranging episodes, and borrowing as well from Jewish scriptures." (p 6)
Interesting. So we know that Mark used Homer because he does not write in verse as Homer did (let alone in dactylic hexameter) or use Homer's language, or follow Homer's plot line.

I wonder what evidence he -- or RC -- would bring forward if they wanted to justify the claim that Mark was not dependent on Homer. Wouldn't it be exactly the same considerations that the appeal to to show that he does?

In any case, there's nothing here about Mark's Greek being "rough", let alone that writes the kind of Greek he does to signify his "rejection of the pagan Greek culture around" him.

In fact, how could one reject the pagan culture of one's day by consciously molding one's work on one of the recognized foundations and achievements of that culture?


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Old 01-11-2009, 01:28 PM   #113
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In fact, how could one reject the pagan culture of one's day by consciously molding one's work on one of the recognized foundations and achievements of that culture?


Jeffrey
Precisely by transvaluing or subverting the themes of that "foundation."

Think of Kazantzakis' Last Temptation of Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk), or Corpus Christi, or the Life of Brian. These works all use the gospels as a basis, but subvert the conventional message associated with Christianity.
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:47 PM   #114
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In fact, how could one reject the pagan culture of one's day by consciously molding one's work on one of the recognized foundations and achievements of that culture?


Jeffrey
Precisely by transvaluing or subverting the themes of that "foundation."

Think of Kazantzakis' Last Temptation of Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk), or Corpus Christi, or the Life of Brian. These works all use the gospels as a basis, but subvert the conventional message associated with Christianity.
But even assuming that what Kazantzakis does in LToC is what Cleese & Co did in LoB, our knowledge that they were rejecting the culteral values inherent in their source (if indeed that's what they did) is based in the fact that they did a heck of a lot more with and to their source than just using it as the basis of their story.

Where, according to McDonald, does Mark do to Homer anything along the lines of what Cleese, Palin, et al. (and perhaps K -- don't know about CC) do to, and with, the stories and themes in Gospels?

Perhaps we should write MacDonald to see if he thinks that what Mark does with Homer is what the lively lads did with the Gospels.

In any case, what's become of the original notion that Mark's Greek displays antipathy towards the pagan culture of his day?

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Old 01-11-2009, 04:11 PM   #115
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There is no exact analogy between the life of Brian's use of the gospels and Mark's use of Homer, but both use the source material to subvert its core values.

This started with something I remembered from Jonathan Kirsch's The History of the End of the World (or via: amazon.co.uk), p. 64
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The poor Greek in which Revelation is written -- "John's language," declares one scholar, "is a ghetto language" -- may reveal more about John's white-hot hatred for the Hellenistic civiliation of ancient Rome than it does about his deficiencies in lanugage and learning. 39 Indeed Adela Yarbro Collins suggests that John was perfectly capable of writing in proper Greek but chose to intentionally "Semiticize" his work as "a kind of protest against the higher form of Hellenistic culture" and "an act of cultural pride of a Jewish Semite."40 To help the modern reader understand the significance of his choice of language, she likens it to the use of "Black English" as a badge of honor . . .

39. Schüssler Fiorenza, Book of Revelation (or via: amazon.co.uk), 15.
40. Yarbro Collins, Crisis and Catharsis (or via: amazon.co.uk), 47.
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Old 01-11-2009, 05:31 PM   #116
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There is no exact analogy between the life of Brian's use of the gospels and Mark's use of Homer, but both use the source material to subvert its core values.
Mark uses Homer to subvert Homer's core values?? Does MacDonald actually say this? And does hes say, if he does say this, that one of the ways he does this is by writing in a "rough" style


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This started with something I remembered from Jonathan Kirsch's The History of the End of the World (or via: amazon.co.uk), p. 64
Quote:
The poor Greek in which Revelation is written -- "John's language," declares one scholar, "is a ghetto language" -- may reveal more about John's white-hot hatred for the Hellenistic civiliation of ancient Rome than it does about his deficiencies in lanugage and learning. 39 Indeed Adela Yarbro Collins suggests that John was perfectly capable of writing in proper Greek but chose to intentionally "Semiticize" his work as "a kind of protest against the higher form of Hellenistic culture" and "an act of cultural pride of a Jewish Semite."40 To help the modern reader understand the significance of his choice of language, she likens it to the use of "Black English" as a badge of honor . . .

39. Schüssler Fiorenza, Book of Revelation (or via: amazon.co.uk), 15.

40. Yarbro Collins, Crisis and Catharsis (or via: amazon.co.uk), 47.
Here's what appear on p. 15-16 in Schüssler Fiorenza, Book of Revelation:

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The grammar and style of Rev. are notoriously difficult because they are full of solecisms and semitisms, repetitions and logical breaks. Nevertheless scholars have not accepted the thesis that Rev. is a rather deficient translation from Hebrew or Ararnaic nor that John's language is a ghetto language due to his inability to write Greek, since the text is not interspersed with Aramaic expressions or inconsistent in its linguistic offenses. Lancelotti's study of the author's syntax has substantiated Charles's dictum that while John "writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew! However, the bilingualism of the author needs much more careful study before a socio-linguistic evaluation can be attempted.
Here's the full text of the paragraph from which Hirsch's quote and summary of Adela's position is drawn.

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It is hard to avoid the conclusion that John was at least bilingual. But why was his mastery of Greek so imperfect? Charles's theory is not persuasive. If a man of John's creative intelligence was unable to master Greek because of personal circumstances, one would expect him to have sought and received assistance. It is more likely that John wrote a peculiar, contemporarily Semitizing Greek on purpose. Such an act may have been a kind of protest against the higher forms of Hellenistic culture. It would have been an act of cultural pride of a Jewish Semite. Such an act fits well with the type of message expressed in Revelation, as we shall see. It is analogous to the refusal of some American blacks to "talk right."
So we have a 50/50 here. S-F does not say what Kirsch says she does. But he is reasonably accurate in his report about what Adela says.


So it looks like what I said about Kirch's position on the import og Revelations language is correct.

So far as I know, Adela's position is not only a minority one, but (as S-F notes) has been falsified by recent studies. Do you know of anyone who has followed her in this?

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Old 01-11-2009, 06:22 PM   #117
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There is no exact analogy between the life of Brian's use of the gospels and Mark's use of Homer, but both use the source material to subvert its core values.
Dear Toto and Philosopher Jay,

The same may be said about the new testament apochryphal gospels. These are widely viewed with justified suspicion as "Romantic tractates" which are more clearly fiction than their canonical counter-parts. While the canonical gospel writers may or may not have indicated that they were writing fiction, who is going to stand up and argue that the apochryphal gospel writers were not writing fiction?

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I think the numerous other gospels connect with the canonical gospels in complex ways.
Your OP might be applied immediately to the numerous other gospels with the clear conclusion that the apochryphal gospel writers clearly indicate (via the genre and subject matter) that they were writing fiction. I think that the author(s) of the apochryphal gospels connect with the authors of the canonical gospels in complex political ways, and one such connection may have been the subversion of the gospels.


Best wishes,


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Old 01-11-2009, 06:26 PM   #118
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Kirsch's bibliography cites the 1985 edition of Schüssler Fiorenza's The Book of Revelation: Justice and Judgment, while you are quoting from a later edition.

I wouldn't say that later studies have "falsified" Adela Yarbro Collins's statement, and I have no idea if it is a minority position, or what significance that would have, when "S F" uses those key phrases, "conjectural" and "more study is needed."
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Old 01-11-2009, 06:44 PM   #119
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Kirsch's bibliography cites the 1985 edition of Schüssler Fiorenza's The Book of Revelation: Justice and Judgment, while you are quoting from a later edition.
Umm, no I'm not. There are only 2 editions of this work. And I'm quoting from the first. I'll scan you its copyright page and its front cover, if you wish to see it.

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I wouldn't say that later studies have "falsified" Adela Yarbro Collins's statement.
Good to know.

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Old 01-11-2009, 07:02 PM   #120
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Ok, then I don't know why Kirsch quoted that phrase, which he just attributed to a "scholar." Perhaps he assumed that if Schüssler Fiorenza chose to rebut the idea, that someone somewhere had said it. You can take that up with him.

If you think that later studies have falsified her position, which studies? Who did them? How can an analogy like that be falsified in any case?
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