Petergdi

Yes.

If you are a follower of Jesus, you must try to do so. Practically everyone slips up, sometimes often. It can be very hard, but if you don't put a serious effort into following the teachings then you aren't a follower.

In biblical (at least Pauline) theology Jesus was a special case in the same way that Adam was a special case. Jesus made a new way of living possible - he didn't do anything to dispense with the necessity of followers at least having a really good try at following.

Your comment sounds like an atheist parody of Christian theology and not like anything I was ever actually taught.

Peter.

Toto

It's not a parody. It's part of that Christmas Carol - written by Charles Wesley, brother of John Wesley who founded the Methodist church, so if that's not Christian, what is?

I thought Christians were supposed to love their neighbors and help the poor and practice nonviolence, but I've never heard that Christians were not supposed to ask for a fair trial when unjustly accused.

Minimalist

So, if he had existed in the first place....been given a fair trial and acquitted and therefore not allegedly crucified and improbably coming back from the dead...... we would not now be annoyed by scads of xtians who believe everything they are told?

Sounds like a fair trade.

aa5874

Since the 2nd century, Justin Martyr wrote "First Apology" to deal with the matter of injustice towards Christians.

This is Justin Martyr in "First Apology" 7
Justin, it would appear, does not want to submit to injustice.

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

Petergdi

I think you are certainly forgetting:

You are also forgetting the Methodist doctrine of Sanctification, and you are forgetting how the early Methodists responded to persecution. You will not find many (if any) cases where early Methodists took legal action or physical retaliation against their persecutors.

I do not think I said or in any way implied that one should not have a good lawyer defend you if the police happen to have the wrong man. In most such cases the authorities do not actually intend injustice. Jesus wasn't in that situation - he was the guy they wanted.

Peter.

Petergdi

You are missing the point. Justin wanted Christianity to be decriminalised for everyone, but when someone wanted him dead personally, he submitted.

Peter.

Solo

Paul believed that Jesus was executed "justly".

Rom 8:3-4 : For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Paul's Christology was built on this point: Jesus, by law, was guilty as sin.

This folks, is no fLuke: Paul really believed it. To Paul it wasn't just ....'someone goofed, don't blame the law'. No, this was the end of the world, when things were not as they should be, and one could only trust God that it was really the end of the world and not that I am insane as many unbelievers are trying to tell me and my-fellow co-prisoners of the Messiah.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree"-- (The reference is to Deuteronomy 21:23.)

It had to be that way, folks. God sent his Son, and fixed it so they nailed him to some artless crude carpentry and then told me, Paul, that that was the secret of the whole creation he kept from everybody until it happened. He gave the secret to me. I hope I don't have to explain why.

Yes, folks, God's blowing up the works. This is sure thing, because told me himself through strange things happening in my body which I interpret as his Son in heaven. If you believe it and behave yourselves and live in the vicinity of Thessalonia, you will be picked up in mid-air by the One who the wicked say is only in my sick mind.

If however you do not believe and do not accept what I am telling you is an act of God's love, i.e. if you believe either that Jesus, like me, was insane, or if you believe in Jesus but continue to fornicate and abuse yourselves with mankind, or if by a stroke of bad luck you don't get to read this information, you will burn in hell forever.

What say you ? Is there injustice in the way Lord operates ? By no means !

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

There you go ! :devil1:

Jiri

spamandham

When I read the Gospel account of Jesus' trial, it is more than fair according to standards of the day. That was part of the whole point originally, I think. The messianic dream really was guilty, and had to be executed by the hypocritical Jews themselves if they hoped to be redeemed.

aa5874

Justin wanted justice for Christians, but was overcome by injustice if he was martyred at all.

I am not missing any point at all.

andrewcriddle

There is a fascinating essay Pontius Pilate spares Jesus in What If 2 (or via: amazon.co.uk) a collection of alternative-history pieces.

In this alternative scenario Jesus is not executed but still suffers for others over a lifetime of self-sacrifice and misunderstanding by his followers.

With differences, Christianity still develops.

Andrew Criddle