EarlDoherty

Theobabble, pure and simple.

No doubt you've also calculated how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Do you believe in demons, s.v.? Why won't you answer? Satan got your tongue?

Earl Doherty

stephan huller

to the degree we try and identify and label forces we don't understand we sound ridiculous. but that there are forces beyond our comprehension is an open question. there is a personal dimension to existence which is impossible to express without sounding stupid to some. nevertheless it is real. as real as getting emotional resonance from inanimate objects - like art. surely art isn't "disproved" by science. just for those people who have no personality

Toto

You've got to be careful with those forces beyond our comprehension. Your insurance company will not reimburse you for an exorcism to treat mental illness by chasing out demons - no evidence that it works better than a placebo.

EarlDoherty

Stephan, it almost sounds like you are joining forces with sotto voce.

What if we don't understand certain "forces" because they don't exist? Because primitive religious beliefs that far outlive their time are being held on to irrationally? It's easy to take the standard refuge of the religious by saying, Oh, we just don't understand them, they can't BE understood by science because science and rationality don't have the means. That's a cop-out.

What is this "personal dimension to existence"? Sounds like more 'babble' to me. There is no such thing as getting 'emotional resonance' from inanimate objects. The Mona Lisa is a piece of canvas covered by paint. There is no resonance to it. What you are experiencing is the art and resonance of the painter which he has embodied in his paint on canvas, enabled by your own receptive 'resonance'. There is nothing mysterious or mystical about it. You don't need to take refuge in explaining it by the unexplainable, or by something that lies outside the human and 'scientific' ken, to which we are supposedly denied access except through revelation. (And whose revelation?)

Great music speaks to the human mind and emotions. It would all be plotable by examining the chemistry in the brain, both the composer's and the listener's, if we had the scientific capacity to do that. We don't need to postulate 'forces that cannot be explained', only perfectly human forces we have not yet developed the capacity to uncover and understand in minute detail. There is no 'god of the gaps' here or anywhere else.

No useful understanding of the world was ever achieved by a religious explanation. No improvement of it was ever furthered by irrational Christian soteriology, or any other religion's "salvation" scheme. The sooner we perceive that, the sooner we'll be able to create a world worth living in, even if it's only for a short time for each of us.

Earl Doherty

stephan huller

That's not the point. Going out to a nightclub in order to pick up women does not come down to calculations but mastering 'forces beyond your control' in real time. Dancing does not come down to calculations but mastering 'forces beyond your control' in real time. Feeling the moment and deciding now is the right time to ask her to come back home with me does not come down to calculations done a priori but mastering 'forces beyond your control' in real time. Figuring out a way to find out if the woman is on birth control or might have an STD is again mastering 'forces beyond your control' in real time.

I am not defending belief in the supernatural other than to say that there are times where it is necessary to ride the wave, to embrace forces beyond your control. Getting laid with complete strangers without dropping a lot of cash is one of them. Making business deals is another. Sitting around by yourself and your own thoughts is not one of them.

stephan huller

I'm also saying that life is art. Yes, a cliche but so what. If you want to be happy, you have to stop demanding to be right all the time and thinking you know everything. It really is as simple as that.

At this forum of course, if we are discussing a text or a piece of evidence - I agree the supernatural should have no place. But in our day to day lives, that's people's own business. We were born, now we are living in this shit hole, how people want to pass their time before their inevitable departure is up to them and there really is no better or worse because we will all disappear and the momentary sense of 'righteousness' disappears with our last breath.

I personally side with living art. But that's my taste. I have very strong and established tastes from living a long time on this earth. Doesn't mean I am right. It's just a matter of taste and sophistication.

It's better to have the richest possible experience on the earth. Living alone sucks. In order to find someone and keep them with you, you have to some common sense of purpose and that comes down to myth-making. You and me against the world.
Really its not 'you and me against the world' but 'you against the world' and 'me against the world' pretending its you and me. But that's the difference between living and living happily. A useful lie.

Sorry but I'll say it again myths are essential for living a happy life. Unless of course you just want to be right all the time and then you can be miserable and alone with a smug sense of indignation for all 'lower forms' of life. I'd rather be a happy ant living happily in the company of an imaginary companion (live or otherwise).

sotto voce

Who is going to believe that it's theobabble? Will the world stop believing in Jesus, because of your post? It's not very constructive to describe the great majority as crazy. It may be true, but 'pure and simple' is light years from rational argument.

sotto voce

That's nothing to do with BC&H. That's the history of those who detested the Bible, and did their best to expunge it from the consciousness of those who created wealth, rather than consumed it, precisely because the Bible was what would have destroyed their parasitic existence had they permitted its circulation and comprehension.

To study the history of the Bible outside itself, one must start with the Renaissance— and proceed with caution.

sotto voce

Romanism and Eastern Orthodoxy were instituted to suppress Christianity. Islam followed suit. Between them, these three religions eliminated all evidence of Christianity in the world, available to historians, until the Renaissance.

Fascism has often aligned itself with Roman Catholicism, and used it as a political tool, as was its original purpose. Nazism is more complex, but it was helped into power and thereafter supported by Catholicism. One could even propose with credibility that Nazism was the creation of the Vatican. Mein Kampf was written by two Catholics. One of its main purposes was the elimination of Jews. Had this project been successful (and the Nazis came within a few weeks of making it so), total global destruction of evidence for Jesus of Nazareth would by now have been possible.

Marxist communism has never existed, and may never exist. It is predicated on the total collapse of global capitalism. Stalinism/Leninism was nothing more than state capitalism, because the state had to compete in a still capitalist global economy. However, it is notable that the 'communist' hierarchy persecuted Christians just as much as any fascist, medieval or sharia state.

EarlDoherty

I thoroughly agree that women are a force beyond my control. But this is hardly the kind of "force" I am talking about. I can see and comprehend that force, just like I can see and understand lightning, but can't control it. I hardly thought that this was the kind of thing we were discussing. If that's what you had in mind, then I'm sorry I commented at all. I assumed that, given this thread and this forum, you were alluding to religious or otherwise mystical forces which cannot be seen or understood and are maybe non-existent. Women and lightning are anything but non-existent.

And it sounds, Stephan, like you are leading a more interesting life than I am.

By the way, to state my opinion and evaluation of things like religion, even in forceful terms, is not to claim that I know everything. But there are things I will reject with secure conviction.

Earl Doherty