Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lumax · 03-09-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Converts are passionate. They are, in many cases, arrogant. They have the truth. They know exactly what should be done, or should not be done.

That's my new favourite quote. Thank you Sean

I went to listen to a speaker(JP Moreland) at a friends church(born-again). I figured how bad could it be? It wasn't too bad until he brought up modern day resurrection. A woman stood and said she had a problem believing in it. Moreland's answer was it was ok for her to doubt as long as she accepted that it really was true even though she couldn't accept it yet but one day would.

stuart shepherd · 03-10-2008, 05:49 AM

Christians rely on the post resurrection appearances of Jesus as a proof that Jesus really was resurrected from the dead. They gloss over the fact that Jesus only appeared to his own followers which makes the credibility of these appearances suspect.

But the following Scripture is probably one of the most enigmatic Scriptures in the Bible.
See what you think......

Quote:

Matthew 28:16-17(King James Version)
16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

These eleven disciples had spent several years touring the Holy Land with Jesus.
One might expect that they knew Jesus better than even his own mother.
They slept, ate, and washed in his company. They watched as Jesus supposedly performed great miracles, healing, walking on water, feeding the multitude with almost nothing, raising the dead.
But when the disciples saw Jesus after his supposed resurrection...""some doubted""

All the many years that I was a Christian, I wondered why some of Jesus' Apostles "doubted" when they supposedly saw the resurrected Jesus. Wouldn't you expect that his most intimate followers who traveled with him would be certain to recognize Jesus instantly.... but some doubted.
Couldn't it be possible that whoever removed Jesus' corpse from the tomb, was now passing off on the disciples an imposter, a Jesus look-alike?

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd · 03-10-2008, 04:27 PM

The Jews often asked Jesus for a sign.

Quote:

Mark 8:11-13(King James Version)
11And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.

12And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
13And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.

According to Mark's Gospel, Jesus said he would NOT give a sign.

But Matthew and Luke embellished the Jesus story by writing that Jesus would give his evil and adulterous generation the sign of Jonah. Three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Jesus was referring to his impending Death....3 days and nights in the tomb....and resurrection.

Think about this for a moment........
Did Mark's Gospel say ...NO SIGN....because the original autograph did not include a resurrection story because there hadn't been a resurrection?

Did Matthew and Luke embellish Mark's Gospel and add the passage about the sign of Jonah, and then add the fictitious resurrection account?

But more importantly, wouldn't you consider feeding 5,000, walking on water, raising the dead back to life, fantastic miracle events that would be a SIGN?

If Jesus promised NO SIGN and yet these miracle SIGNs are in the gospels, doesn't it seem obvious that the miracles were fabricated into the life of the historical Jesus, who did no miracles, and provided NO SIGN?

stuart shepherd

stuart shepherd · 03-11-2008, 07:51 AM

An interesting fact concerning Jesus' post resurrection appearances is that the only people that the Bible reports having seen the allegedly risen Jesus are followers of Jesus.

If the church of Scientology reported that L Ron Hubbard rose from the dead, met with his followers and then after 40 days went to heaven, would you believe that Hubbard rose from the dead? Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, met with his followers for 40 days and then went to heaven?

According to the gospels, Jesus made the following prophecy.....

Quote:

Matthew 12:39-40(King James Version)
39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In this prophecy, Jesus is predicting his death, and that after 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, he would show himself to his "evil and adulterous generation" as a sign that he had risen from the dead.

The prophecy failed because Jesus never showed himself alive to his "evil and adulterous generation" as a sign that he had risen from the dead.
Jesus only showed himself to his own followers according to the Bible. Presumedly, his own followers were not evil and adulterous.

Proof positive...an unfulfilled prophecy...a false prophet...no resurrection.

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd · 03-11-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

John 19:39 (King James Version)
39And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

According to the KJV, Jesus' body was wrapped in linen with 100 pounds of spices. The NIV says 75 pounds. I assume the difference is due to translation of the ancient unit of measure.

But whether it is 75 pounds or 100 pounds.....that's a lot of spices.

I looked on the internet and discovered that aloes and myrrh have specific gravities that are very very close to the specific gravity of water.
A gallon of water weighs 8.33 pounds.
If we divide 8.33 into 75 pounds, we discover that 75 pounds of spices are the volume of nine one gallon jugs.

Go look in your refrigerator. You probably have a one gallon jug of milk. That will illustrate the volume of one gallon. Now mentally consider wrapping a corpse with nine gallons of spices. I don't think it is possible. It is like stuffing the proverbial five pound bag with ten pounds of sh*t.

I think that this demonstrates once again that the resurrection story is fiction.

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd · 03-12-2008, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Quote:

John 19:39 (King James Version)
39And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

According to the KJV, Jesus' body was wrapped in linen with 100 pounds of spices. The NIV says 75 pounds. I assume the difference is due to translation of the ancient unit of measure.

But whether it is 75 pounds or 100 pounds.....that's a lot of spices.

I looked on the internet and discovered that aloes and myrrh have specific gravities that are very very close to the specific gravity of water.
A gallon of water weighs 8.33 pounds.
If we divide 8.33 into 75 pounds, we discover that 75 pounds of spices are the volume of nine one gallon jugs.

Go look in your refrigerator. You probably have a one gallon jug of milk. That will illustrate the volume of one gallon. Now mentally consider wrapping a corpse with nine gallons of spices. I don't think it is possible. It is like stuffing the proverbial five pound bag with ten pounds of sh*t.

I think that this demonstrates once again that the resurrection story is fiction.

Stuart Shepherd

Last night when I went to bed I was thinking about those spices.
On one of the websites it said that in ancient times, Myrrh was worth its weight in Gold. Myrrh was one of the gifts that the Queen of Sheba brought to King Solomon, and one of the gifts that the Magi brought to the baby Jesus at Christmas.

If half of the 75 pounds of spices was Myrrh, [37 pounds]....and you do the Math....it figures to be about a half a million dollars US worth of Myrrh, if myrrh is valued at today's gold price of $900.00 an ounce.

$500,000.00 slobbered on a corpse to make it smell good? Ridiculous!

Just more proof that this story is fiction.

Stuart Shepherd

George S · 03-12-2008, 06:13 AM

Of course, Stuart, the story is myth.

It is the myth that entrances, not the facts. The myth that a) there is more to living than what goes on day to day, b) this Being Conscious can persist beyond life, c) the state of afterlife is not consistent for all, there is a favored group, d) the state of mind (belief, non-belief) of individual human consciousnesses determines, in part or in whole, the attitude of the provider of that afterlife toward that preserved consciousness.

The myth, not the facts is what compels. We love a good story. We take lessons from Aesop, why not from the anonymous authors of 'holy' scripture?

Let us take one Jesus of Nazareth as a role-model in part. In particular, let us hone in on one thing he did. He was critical of written scripture. He preached that the details of the law did not matter. What mattered was the lessons of love and compassion that could be learned. I would recommend that all of us be critical of any document proclaiming details of behavior for all time. WWJD? He would flat out reject much of scripture (if his history be our guide). Why should we presume to do less than this fine role-model?

The amount of myrrh was hyperbole. A mythological 'infinity.'

stuart shepherd · 03-12-2008, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Of course, Stuart, the story is myth.

It is the myth that entrances, not the facts. The myth that a) there is more to living than what goes on day to day, b) this Being Conscious can persist beyond life, c) the state of afterlife is not consistent for all, there is a favored group, d) the state of mind (belief, non-belief) of individual human consciousnesses determines, in part or in whole, the attitude of the provider of that afterlife toward that preserved consciousness.

The myth, not the facts is what compels. We love a good story. We take lessons from Aesop, why not from the anonymous authors of 'holy' scripture?

Let us take one Jesus of Nazareth as a role-model in part. In particular, let us hone in on one thing he did. He was critical of written scripture. He preached that the details of the law did not matter. What mattered was the lessons of love and compassion that could be learned. I would recommend that all of us be critical of any document proclaiming details of behavior for all time. WWJD? He would flat out reject much of scripture (if his history be our guide). Why should we presume to do less than this fine role-model?

The amount of myrrh was hyperbole. A mythological 'infinity.'

Your comments made me think of Dorothy and Toto, following the yellow brick road, on their way to Oz to see the wizard.
"I'm off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz"
"Somewhere over the rainbow......"

Great story!

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd · 03-12-2008, 01:35 PM

One of the big arguments that Chistians make for the resurrection is that the early Christians died as martyrs for their faith. So the story has to be true.
HOGWASH!

People are very complex and it is not always easy to assign a reason as to what motivates people. Just read your local newspaper, and almost everyday there is a report of a suicide bomber in Iraq. This is the ultimate sacrifice, ending your life. These people must be very religious and have a firm faith that they will receive a reward in the next life. But because of their faith are you and I motivated to become Muslims? I doubt it.

Are you old enough to remember the Viet Nam war? If not ask your Mom and Dad. During the war Buddists monks would regularly pour gasoline on their body, sit in the middle of a busy intersection in Saigon, and light a match. Would their faith motivate you to become a Buddist?

During World War II, the Japaneese kamikaze pilots flew their planes into American ships killing themselves for their God. What faith. Do you want to join the Shinto religion?

Throughout History people have killed themselves and made great sacrifices for their beliefs.
It is meaningless folly to think that such sacrifices somehow insure that their beliefs are truth.

Stuart Shepherd

George S · 03-12-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Of course, Stuart, the story is myth.

It is the myth that entrances, not the facts. The myth that a) there is more to living than what goes on day to day, b) this Being Conscious can persist beyond life, c) the state of afterlife is not consistent for all, there is a favored group, d) the state of mind (belief, non-belief) of individual human consciousnesses determines, in part or in whole, the attitude of the provider of that afterlife toward that preserved consciousness.

The myth, not the facts is what compels. We love a good story. We take lessons from Aesop, why not from the anonymous authors of 'holy' scripture?

Let us take one Jesus of Nazareth as a role-model in part. In particular, let us hone in on one thing he did. He was critical of written scripture. He preached that the details of the law did not matter. What mattered was the lessons of love and compassion that could be learned. I would recommend that all of us be critical of any document proclaiming details of behavior for all time. WWJD? He would flat out reject much of scripture (if his history be our guide). Why should we presume to do less than this fine role-model?

The amount of myrrh was hyperbole. A mythological 'infinity.'

Your comments made me think of Dorothy and Toto, following the yellow brick road, on their way to Oz to see the wizard.
"I'm off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz"
"Somewhere over the rainbow......"

Great story!

Stuart Shepherd

The Oz books by L. Frank Baum were morality tales each with a moral.

That of the original was simple, but often overlooked.

Dorothy searches for how to get to Home (not just a house, but a warm loving safe place); The Cowardly Lion wants courage, the Scarecrow -- brains; the Tin Man -- a heart.

The moral of the story is that each already has what he thinks he is seeking for. Dorothy has the means, the Lion always acts even though afraid and what else is courage, the Scarecrow offers the wisest advice even though he doubts it, and the Tin Man is the kindest, most thoughtful.

The magic wizard is a fraud. He has to be. And that's the lesson. There is no need to search for spirituality, how to get home, have courage, wisdom and a kind heart. If you have the thought to search, you have found it already, don't you see. The magic is not in some future tomorrow; it is here and now today. You have the means already; just look!

03-12-2008, 01:35 PM	#169
stuart shepherd Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 315	Christianity's Faith is Folly One of the big arguments that Chistians make for the resurrection is that the early Christians died as martyrs for their faith. So the story has to be true. HOGWASH! People are very complex and it is not always easy to assign a reason as to what motivates people. Just read your local newspaper, and almost everyday there is a report of a suicide bomber in Iraq. This is the ultimate sacrifice, ending your life. These people must be very religious and have a firm faith that they will receive a reward in the next life. But because of their faith are you and I motivated to become Muslims? I doubt it. Are you old enough to remember the Viet Nam war? If not ask your Mom and Dad. During the war Buddists monks would regularly pour gasoline on their body, sit in the middle of a busy intersection in Saigon, and light a match. Would their faith motivate you to become a Buddist? During World War II, the Japaneese kamikaze pilots flew their planes into American ships killing themselves for their God. What faith. Do you want to join the Shinto religion? Throughout History people have killed themselves and made great sacrifices for their beliefs. It is meaningless folly to think that such sacrifices somehow insure that their beliefs are truth. Stuart Shepherd

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03-12-2008, 06:13 AM	#167
George S Contributor Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 16,498	Of course, Stuart, the story is myth. It is the myth that entrances, not the facts. The myth that a) there is more to living than what goes on day to day, b) this Being Conscious can persist beyond life, c) the state of afterlife is not consistent for all, there is a favored group, d) the state of mind (belief, non-belief) of individual human consciousnesses determines, in part or in whole, the attitude of the provider of that afterlife toward that preserved consciousness. The myth, not the facts is what compels. We love a good story. We take lessons from Aesop, why not from the anonymous authors of 'holy' scripture? Let us take one Jesus of Nazareth as a role-model in part. In particular, let us hone in on one thing he did. He was critical of written scripture. He preached that the details of the law did not matter. What mattered was the lessons of love and compassion that could be learned. I would recommend that all of us be critical of any document proclaiming details of behavior for all time. WWJD? He would flat out reject much of scripture (if his history be our guide). Why should we presume to do less than this fine role-model? The amount of myrrh was hyperbole. A mythological 'infinity.'

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