QRUEL

Not that I know the answer, but...
I don't see how you can assert that the average healthy man could live into their 70's when the information you provide does not address the average working man...

these were NOT your oridinary average worker people (Emperor Augustus, Tiberius and Claudius). They didn't have the hardships that the common folks did.

I agree that rulers and people of wealth and status could have lived beyond the 30-40 years normally mentioned, but I have no proof or sources to validate my asseration.

if you have proof of what the common worker, who endured the hardships of the time lived to, please present it as I'm sure plenty of people here would find it interesting

andrewcriddle

Some of the grounds for my statement are figures for more recent societies without modern medicine agriculture etc. I'm not sure how good the statistical evidence for the ancient world itself is.

However obviously people on the very bottom of the heap such as slaves on chain gangs would have lived shorter lives but the typical early Christian probably did not come from that group.

The main point is what a life expectancy of 40 quoted for a society means. If a third of babies die before five then the rest can live on average over 55 years and still have a life expectancy for the whole society of 40 years.

As non-statistical but interesting pieces of evidence a/ there were enough very old people around for Lucian to write a book on notable octogenarians b/ Polycarp was 86 years old at his martyrdom.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

One must ask why anyone in their right mind who believed that they had something important to say would wait until they were 70 years old to write down what happened over 40 years ago.

Theophage

He waited until enough time passed from the real events that his version would be more believeable, perhaps

Johnny Skeptic

That is a definite possibility, but what about the much earlier writings of Paul, 1st Corinthians for instance? My answer is that we don't really know precisely which writings Paul wrote. The possibility of interpolations cannot be easily discounted by fundamentalist Christians. If for the sake of argument we discount 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 as being Pauline, would 1 Corinthians not be a good deal less useful to Christians?

Amaleq13

I can't give you odds but it is my understanding that this is the view of most scholars.

Again, IIUC, the earliest version/portions are thought to possibly be as old as Mark.

The "common theory" about Mark is due to Eusebius' quotation of Papias to that effect but I know of no similar tradition about John's author.

hallq

The argument about John's Jesus not resembling that of the other gospels is a poor argument, because eyewitnesses are capable of putting words in a teacher's mouth. Plato very likely did this to Socrates.

On the other hand, the book contains not one shred of evidence pointing to John specifically. It just talks about the Beloved Disciple, a mystery figure not identified with any disciple. That strikes me as odd, if it really was written by an eyewitness.

mdarus

The New International Commentary on the New Testament – The Gospel of John – Leon Morris (1971)

A. The GJ is valuable even if the author is anonymous
a. Complete certainty is unattainable
b. If the source is second century, this is another thing
B. “Continental scholars” have abandoned the idea for the most part that GJ is written by the Apostle John
a. In Britain, scholarship has been more hospitable to the idea
i. Some thing John wrote it (conservative evangelicals)
ii. Others that John was closely associated with it in some way
b. There is movement away from believing John wrote it both in Britain and America
i. This should be taken seriously
ii. It is due more to the prevailing climate of opinion than to any new evidence
c. A. M. Hunter gives three reasons for rejecting Johannine authorship
i. The author uses the Synopitcs
ii. Distinct difference in style from the Snynoptics
iii. The improbability of the author calling himself “the disciple who Jesus loved”
d. Westcott is aware of these points yet other concerns outweigh them
i. He has a massive argument
ii. His argument has not so much been confuted as bypassed
e. Lightfoot states, “This traditional ascription still receives support and has never been shown to be impossible.”
C. Internal Evidence: Counter arguments against objections to Johannine authorship (JA)
a. The first two of Hunter’s objections are not as substantial as the third, but:
i. The GJ claims to be written by the Apostle John (John 21:24)
1. No manuscript of the GJ is without this verse
2. A footnote discusses the issue of chapter 21 being added
ii. The description of the disciple leaning on the bosom of Jesus
iii. The details of the crucifixion witnessed by John and the women
iv. Details of racing to the tomb
v. Recognition of the resurrected Jesus in Galilee
vi. The disciple, John is not named anywhere in the GJ. Only John himself could make this omission
vii. “John the Baptist” in this gospel is referred to only as “John”, this in a gospel that usually distinguishes names to prevent confusion.
viii. The writer knows Palestine will
ix. The writer’s style is that of a Jew – there are indications that the Gospel was originally written in Aramaic and then translated into Greek (C.F. Burney, 1922).
1. Supported by comparison to the Dead Sea Scrolls
2. Some see similarities with contemporaneous rabbis
x. Details suggest an eye witness:
1. time of day, place names
2. Detailed accounts with Jesus interactions with individuals: Nicodemus, Malchus, Caiaphas
3. Internal claims: 1:14; 19:35
xi. Controversies in the gospel are 1st century, not 2nd century
1. 2nd century issues like episcopacy, Gnostic emanations, the date of Easter, disputes between Christians and Jews are not addressed
2. 1st century issues like use and abuse of the Sabbath, the Messiah and his credentials, whether the Messiah will rescue the Jews from the Romans, about true and false Judaism are addressed.
xii. The writer knew the other disciples
1. What they talked about among themselves
2. Knowledge of what they were thinking about
3. Knowledge of places the frequented
4. Mistakes they made which they later corrected
b. Another substantial argument against Johannine authorship is the Gospels focus on Judea when John’s interest should be in Galilee
i. This author includes the wedding in Cana of Galilee
ii. Jerusalem eclipsed his hometown with its theological importance
c. Another substantial argument against Johannine authorship is its reflection of Gnostic ideas which argue for a late date beyond John’s lifetime
i. The ideas can be explained as “preGnotsitc”
ii. There is no developed Gnosticism in GJ
iii. The Dead Sea Scrolls show evidence of 1st century Jewish thought attributing great importance to knowledge and used a Hellenistic vocabulary
iv. The Apostle John would have had direct exposure to Greek culture and thought
d. The omissions of the transfiguration and the agony in Gethsemane are another argument against JA
i. The transfiguration may not have fit John’s them that Jesus’ glory was manifested continually in the path of lowly service.
ii. The theme of the agony is mentioned in 12:27
e. The difference in style from the Synoptics
i. Jesus is a gigantic figure. One style is not sufficient to capture his whole personality
ii. The Synoptics may capture the public image of Jesus where John captures his more private relationships
D. External Evidence
a. John the Son of Zebedee is not named as the author in the earliest days
b. Theophilus of Antioch (180 AD) is the earliest source
c. Irenaus, whose source was Polycarp, who knew John personally (a letter from Irenaus is cited by Eusebius)
d. Christian literature begins with Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian
e. The GJ was the favorite among the Gnostics. Irenaeus noted that Ptolemaeus and his followers believed the author was “John, the disciple of the Lord”
f. The popularity of the Gospel among heretics would be expected to raise alternative authors if there was any indication
g. There are indications of a “school” of John which prompted the writing of the GJ. This would support that the material was original with John even if the book were dictated or his oral traditions preserved b others.
h. Eusebius mentions a “John the Elder”There is no evidence for a person known as “John the Elder”
E. Archeological Evidence
a. In the catacombs, the raising of Lazarus appears on early murals (mid second century)
b. Baskets connected to the miracle of the loaves an fishes are connected with Eucharist early
c. The inscription of Abercinus may refer to John 10 (c 150 AD)

rob117

According to what I've read anyway, chapter 21 is an "appendix," not written by the original author, showing several stylistic differences with the rest of the work. The main body of the gospel (probably written c. 90-100 AD) does not claim to be written by the beloved disciple (John), but by the time ch 21 was added (c.100-110?) it had come to be widely attributed to him because of its frequent references to him and the anonymity of the actual authorship, and John himself was no longer alive to contest this attribution.

That a tradition that John would never die existed seems to indicate that he in fact did live a fairly long life, into his 80s or 90s maybe. He probably died shortly before the gospel was written. The main body of the gospel never mentions the rumor, so the original author probably dismissed it altogether. The appendix was added perhaps a decade later by another author more concerned with popular rumor- including the rumor that this anonymous gospel, which had started circulating so shortly after the beloved disciple had died, was in fact written by him.

TedM

Here is something I came up with a few years ago which shows the many similarities between GJohn and the Synoptics. Of course, the skeptic will point out the many differences:

.............
While the parable stories are missing, He continues to use metaphors to illustrate his points. As he says in John 16:25 Jesus says in 16:25 “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures.” Some of the figures in common with the synoptics are:

He referenced the harvesting of the fields 4:35
reference to a shining lamp 5:35
reference to eating of his flesh, and drinking of his blood (similar to Last Supper) 6:53,
sheep and shephards

Not so common with the synoptics, but figures nonetheless are his references to the Bread of Life the Vine, the Resurrection and Life, the Living Waters.

A few phrases/words in common are “truly I say unto you”, “sons of light”, “drink the cup”, “Son of Man”

And there are events or references in common:

John the baptist’s preaching, baptism of Jesus
The call of Andrew and Peter to become disciples
Driving the money changers from the temple
The reference to John the Baptist in prison
John the Baptists response over the lack of fasting or ‘purifying’ of Jesus’ disciples, and referring to Jesus as the ‘bridegroom’.
Jesus healed on the sabbath, which displeased the religious
Many references by Jesus to himself as the Son of man. Ex: 5:27 (the Father) “has given him authority to execute judgement, because he is the Son of man”
The feeding of the 5000, very similar in details
The walking on the water
The people ask Jesus for a sign of proof
Peter’s affirmation that Jesus is the Messiah
He was accused of being possessed by a demon
People marveled at his teaching with authority at the temples without having studied, and having knowledge of his parents and family
People didn’t always understand what he was saying
He used his spittle to heal a blind man
The anointing by Mary in Bethany
Triumphal entry into Jerulalem on a colt
At the Lord’s supper: focus on serving others, fruit of the vine reference, identifies his betrayer as the one who shares his bread with him
His announcement of going separating from his disciples
Prediction of Peter’s denial
Betrayal by Judas, arrest, cutting off of ear of slave of high priest at arrest
Peter’s denial
Questioning by Caiaphus the high priest. His account has more detail which may be accounted for by the authors presence there.
Scourging, crown of thorns, purple robe
release of Barabbus
Crucifiction details: at Golgotha, in the middle of 2 others, title on the cross of “Jesus of Nazereth, the King of the Jews”, division of his garments by casting lots, vinigar offered to Him when he says he ‘thirsts’
Burial by Joseph of Arimathea
New tomb in a garden
Women visiting the tomb
Appearance to Mary Magdelene
Appearance to 10 disciples on first evening in Jerusalem
Charge to the disciples to spread the gospel


In addition, there are a number of things Jesus said in John that are recorded, although sometimes in a different setting, in the synoptics:

John Matthew Mark Luke Reference:
2:19 26:61 14:58 Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
3:35 28:18 All authority has been given to Jesus
4:44 13:57 6:4 4:24 A profit has no honor in his own country
5:23 10:16 He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him/He who rejects me rejects him who sent me
5:29 25:46 those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment/and they will go away into enternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
7:28-29 11:27 he who sent me is true, and him you do not know. I know him, for I come from him/All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son..
9:39 13:13 those who see may become blind/seeing they do not see
12:8 26:11 14:7 The poor you always have with you, but you do not
always have me
12:25 10:39 8:35 9:24 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his
life in the world will keep it for eternal life/Whoever
would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his
life for my sake will save it.
12:27 26:38-39 14:34 Now my soul is troubled. And what whall I say?
Father save me from this hour?/My soul is very
sorrowful. My father, if it be possible let this cup
pass from me; nevertheless not as I will but as thou
wilt.
12:44 10:40 He who believes in me believes not in me but in him
who sent me/He who receives me receives him who
sent me
13:16 10:24 A servant isn’t greater than his master
13:20 10:40 10:16 He who receives anyone whom I send receives me/
He who receives you receives me.
15:8 5:16 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much
fruit/..that they may see your good works and give
glory to your Father who is in heaven


It is clear, then, that much of what GJohn writes about is in the synoptics also, even prior to his entry into Jerusalem.


ted