Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 11-19-2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

So you are ready to admit you have no way of showing yourself that you are not deluded, that you could be just as off the wall as Nash was. This is the issue: are you unrepentantly looney-tuned? Is everything that you say presupposing your untestable god not just a waste of breath?
(Italics added.)

Sure, I could be deluded and wasting my breath.

Feel better now?

Yeah, sure. I've been conversing with someone who doesn't seem interested in knowing whether he's talking nonsense. What sort of exercise is that for you?

outhouse · 11-19-2012, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Ah, but how do you know?

NO!

that is what we are asking you

and you keep ignoring, and dodging specifics when cornered with facts VS your imagination

TedM · 11-19-2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

So you are ready to admit you have no way of showing yourself that you are not deluded, that you could be just as off the wall as Nash was. This is the issue: are you unrepentantly looney-tuned? Is everything that you say presupposing your untestable god not just a waste of breath?
(Italics added.)

Sure, I could be deluded and wasting my breath.

Feel better now?

Yeah, sure. I've been conversing with someone who doesn't seem interested in knowing whether he's talking nonsense. What sort of exercise is that for you?

What did I say that is nonsense? That you can't know the mind of God? I stand by that claim. That God, if he exists, is way more intelligent than you or I? I stand by that claim. Just because something can't be tested or proven, it doesn't make it nonsense. It just makes it unprovable.

TedM · 11-19-2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Ah, but how do you know?

NO!

that is what we are asking you

and you keep ignoring, and dodging specifics when cornered with facts VS your imagination

You keep harping on imagination, as though nothing true can be imagined, when that is not the case.

aa is right about one thing: If one has to KNOW, then the proper position is agnosticism. Not atheism or theism.

TedM · 11-19-2012, 08:59 PM

OT for Earl D. I mistakenly wrote that my last post about 8:4 discussed a linear chronology for verses 1-6. I remember more clearly now that it discussed the possibility that all 6 verses were talking about the present, after the sacrifice was offered, and I provided some support for that view.

Jaybees · 11-19-2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Yeah, sure. I've been conversing with someone who doesn't seem interested in knowing whether he's talking nonsense. What sort of exercise is that for you?

What did I say that is nonsense? That you can't know the mind of God? I stand by that claim. That God, if he exists, is way more intelligent than you or I? I stand by that claim. Just because something can't be tested or proven, it doesn't make it nonsense. It just makes it unprovable.

Try reading this again. You say: "...you can't know the mind of God...I stand by that claim."

Then you say:

"That god, if he exists, is way more intelligent than you or I...I stand by that claim."

So you deny that we can know the mind of god, yet you immediately say that you know he's more intelligent than you or I.

Is it any wonder that we question your logic when you contradict yourself in just one paragraph.

MrMacSon · 11-19-2012, 10:13 PM

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Originally Posted by TedM

... The atheist universe is amoral, and some would say immoral if one is honest and follows their base evolutionary instincts.

It is statements like that one that are immoral, TedM.

As is this ...

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The lack of absolute standards by definition means that standards are all relative to the situation and to each person. They only are standardized when people make them standard. But when it comes to the individual he is perfectly justified in taking whatever action he/she wishes to further his own existence. Sorry if you don't like this, but it is the way it is in the atheist worldview.

We all live by societal norms & mores - ethics & morals that are really independent of religion, but that religions & their adherents have co-opted and claimed to own.

this was drivel, too -

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Just like the universe they believe in, there is no purpose to behavior which they must follow as a guide.

TedM · 11-19-2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Yeah, sure. I've been conversing with someone who doesn't seem interested in knowing whether he's talking nonsense. What sort of exercise is that for you?

What did I say that is nonsense? That you can't know the mind of God? I stand by that claim. That God, if he exists, is way more intelligent than you or I? I stand by that claim. Just because something can't be tested or proven, it doesn't make it nonsense. It just makes it unprovable.

Try reading this again. You say: "...you can't know the mind of God...I stand by that claim."

Then you say:

"That god, if he exists, is way more intelligent than you or I...I stand by that claim."

So you deny that we can know the mind of god, yet you immediately say that you know he's more intelligent than you or I.

Is it any wonder that we question your logic when you contradict yourself in just one paragraph.

Your point is a good one given the wrong context. The scripture that refers to knowing the mind of God is specifically referring to the motivations behinds God's actions--the reasons why he does things.

In the right context we see that one doesn't have to understand God's mind--ie the reasons he does or doesn't do things-- in order to determine that it must be highly advanced.

Hopefully that clarifies why there really is no contradiction.

outhouse · 11-19-2012, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

NO!

that is what we are asking you

and you keep ignoring, and dodging specifics when cornered with facts VS your imagination

You keep harping on imagination, as though nothing true can be imagined, when that is not the case.

aa is right about one thing: If one has to KNOW, then the proper position is agnosticism. Not atheism or theism.

nothing true can be imagined? imagination has its place in many applications.

creating and defining deities using your imagination, and then trying to sell that to us, doesnt cut it.

there is no "proper" position, I personally like our default position we are all born with. No deities. No belief and no faith in Santa Claus existing in reality

Jaybees · 11-19-2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Your point is a good one given the wrong context. The scripture that refers to knowing the mind of God is specifically referring to the motivations behinds God's actions--the reasons why he does things.

In the right context we see that one doesn't have to understand God's mind--ie the reasons he does or doesn't do things-- in order to determine that it must be highly advanced.

Hopefully that clarifies why there really is no contradiction.

Your clarification is as confused as your original contradiction.

According to you, now, we don't have to understand god's mind in order to know it's a highly advanced one.

Sheesh!!

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11-19-2012, 08:59 PM	#195
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	OT for Earl D. I mistakenly wrote that my last post about 8:4 discussed a linear chronology for verses 1-6. I remember more clearly now that it discussed the possibility that all 6 verses were talking about the present, after the sacrifice was offered, and I provided some support for that view.

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