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Old 12-21-2008, 10:27 PM   #51
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There is also the matter --which no one has seemed to take up --as to whether the implication of the original question is that NT scholarship can't be any good if it is done by "christians"
A conflict of interest may result in honest results, but do you expect it to generally result in that?

If not, then do you expect it to result in that in this specific instance?

If so, then why?
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:17 AM   #52
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In one of your own post you claim it is less likely for a NON-BELIEVER to go into NT Studies, if that is so, then it must surely be more likely that most NT scholars are BELIEVERS.
No, that does not follow.

Suppose HYPOTHETICALLY that 90% of all college graduates are not Christian. If 60% of NT scholars are not Christian, then it would be true that NT scholars are more likely to be Christian, but also that most are not believers.

But I have no idea what the percentages are, and I don't think that there is any valid survey data, or that you could even do an accurate survey.
You are contradicting yourself.

You are clealy showing that my statement is logical even with your own hypothethical figures.

This is absolutely amazing.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:22 AM   #53
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We are not dealing with biologists, chemists or musicians right now, we are dealing with the OP.

In one of your own post you claim it is less likely for a NON-BELIEVER to go into NT Studies, if that is so, then it must surely be more likely that most NT scholars are BELIEVERS.
Even assuming that Toto is correct, you beg the question in assuming not only that there is only one type of belief/believer, but, more importantly, that everyone stays a "believer" after going into NT studies. Do you have any hard evidence that this is so?

Jeffrey
Just tell me how many type of believers you know and I will tell you if I believe you.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:23 AM   #54
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In my hypothetical, what is the likelihood that a NT scholar is a Christian? (Hint: 40%. That's less that 1/2).
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:43 AM   #55
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In my hypothetical, what is the likelihood that a NT scholar is a Christian? (Hint: 40%. That's less that 1/2).
You are indeed right. I did mis-read your statement. Your hypothetical figures are in your favour.

Now, if I suggest that it is likely that only 20% of non-believers or less are in NT studies, then it would be a different outcome.

And it does not matter if 90% of college students are non-believers, only how many are in NT studies, since only 5% of college students may be in NT studies of which 90% may be believers.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:10 AM   #56
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Gerard: are you claiming that NT scholars are a random sample of the population? Otherwise, your gross statistics don't mean much.
Lacking numbers, that has to be the first hypothesis. Having said that, I suspect--but don't know--that this is not the case. E.g. established scholars tend to be older while those most contributing to secularization tend to be younger (which would make older data more relevant for NT scholars). Further more, it sounds reasonable to me--but I can't back it up--that NT scholars would be drawn more from the Christian population. All of which would make the NT scholar population skewed towards Christianity. IOW, a case can be made that it is reasonable to assume that a majority of NT scholars is indeed Christian. That case is not a slam dunk, but neither can it be dismissed out of hand.

Gerard Stafleu
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Old 12-23-2008, 07:33 AM   #57
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How would the reasoning in this thread be applicable to OT studies? I don't claim to be a True Scholar(TM), but I'm so far quite open to extend my three semesters up to and including a doctoral thesis. Unless I go for, for example, Sikhism or Buddhism.

Will I be unique in researching a religion that I don't encompass? I hope not. I should rather be more free than believers to draw my own conclusions.
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:52 AM   #58
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Now, perhaps you'd grace us with your list of names of those whom you consider to be scholars in the field of NT studies.
What about:
- Crossan
- Mack
- Eisenman
- Ehrman
- Helms
- Fredricksen
- Sanders
- Horsley
- Theissen
- Meier
- Vermes

For the last two, Meier is Catholic (a point worth noticing if we have to take into account the recommendations of Dei Verbum) and Vermes is Jewish. I'm interested in the faith of the others if someone knows.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:39 AM   #59
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How would the reasoning in this thread be applicable to OT studies?

There are questions about Moses and the Exodus. There are questions about Israelite monarchs before Omri in Samaria. There are questions about the development of the Torah, including the role played by Ezra. An Orthodox Jew might have trouble investigating such issues scientifically.
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:00 AM   #60
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Now, perhaps you'd grace us with your list of names of those whom you consider to be scholars in the field of NT studies.
What about:
- Crossan
- Mack
- Eisenman
- Ehrman
- Helms
- Fredricksen
- Sanders
- Horsley
- Theissen
- Meier
- Vermes

For the last two, Meier is Catholic (a point worth noticing if we have to take into account the recommendations of Dei Verbum) and Vermes is Jewish. I'm interested in the faith of the others if someone knows.
Crossan and Mack can be classified as liberal Christians.
Eisenman is Jewish.
Ehrman describes himself as agnostic - an atheist without balls.
Helms - do you mean Randall Helms? I am pretty sure he is not religious.
Fredricksen is Jewish.
E.P. Sanders is described in his wiki entry: "Sanders identifies himself as a "liberal, modernized protestant" in his book "Jesus and Judaism;" fellow scholar John P. Meier calls him a postliberal Protestant."
Horsley and Theissen - I have no information.
Meier is a Catholic Priest.
Vermes was born Jewish, converted as a child to Catholicism, survived the Holocaust, studied for the priesthood, then reasserted his Jewish identity.
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