Wolfie

Yeah, I'm agreeing with Stinger here. Depending on attitude, it's not usually arrogant to state what you honestly believe. I personally don't believe in Bible god. I don't rule out the possibility of some higher being. If God exists, I am also quite happy to have my own personal relationship with her - but she hasn't had the need to talk to me yet. No problem.

trendkill

It's not about choice, it's about what's necessary to change your mind. People do not decide 'my standard of evidence is going to be X because I'm an arrogant bastard who wants to rub it in God's face that I don't believe in him', they assess their standard of evidence and report.

Selsaral

The fact that people are only unable to tell the difference between God talking and some guy claiming that God told him to tell us stuff when it comes to the religion they were raised under should provoke significant suspicion in any one. Protestants don't believe Mohommad or Joseph Smith, Muslims don't believe David Koresh or L. Ron Hubbard, etc. It certainly does seem arrogant to think 'I'm not like those other people who stupidly believe that those guys actually communicated with God'.

Rigel

Come on. Statements like the one made by ksen about Johnny's lack of evidence are no different that others made by christians to non-believers. They act like they have some superior knowledge and pity the poor heathens that are not "saved". Maybe some people are not willing to base their lives on a violent book of fairy tales written thousands of years ago by a bunch of goat herders.

These statements are condescending and arrogant. They say things like "I used to have doubts and be confused like you, then I found jesus".

If you want to accept evidence like Virgin Mary's face in a grilled cheese sandwich or some other nonsense, great. Don't act like nontheists are "confused" because they don't swallow such bunk.

ksen

You entirely misread what I wrote.

I wasn't saying I had superior knowledge. I said the evidence I do have is sufficient for me. That's it.

I have no idea what evidence Johnny has considered. But I do know from reading his threads that whatever evidence he has seen and considered has not been sufficient for him to accept that the God of the bible exists.

That's not me being condescending to him.

That's not even in the same neighborhood to what I said.

I'm not sure why you are reacting the way you are to my posts. But whatever just know that I don't have the attitude you are describing.

Erm, I don't accept things like Mary's face in a grilled cheese sandwich. That's a Catholic idiosyncracy.

And the only way I'd swallow that is after chewing it up and downing it with some milk.

ksen

I wasn't raised a christian. I was raised by parents ambivalent towards religion.

Selsaral

My statement applies to the vast, vast majority of believers and is backed up by endless anthropological and ethnographic data. I also was raised by secular parents, but in a Christian-dominated nation and even as an atheist I at first glance find Christian concepts much more 'normal' than menstrual blood magic, cargo cults, termite oracles, witchcraft, and drug-induced trips to the spirit world. It takes a village (or a culture) to raise a child.

Would you like to explain why you don't seem to see a difference between God telling us something and some guy writing in an ancient book that God told him to tell us something, and how that same view works on Islam, Mormonism, The Moonies, and the rest?

Rigel

In that case, my apologies.

ksen

I suppose to those outside christianity it looks like we are asking for special pleading and I guess to some degree we are. :huh:

All I can say right now is that I rely on the tradition I have been taught that the bible is God's communication to Mankind given through some other men. Was it divine dictation? I don't think so.

Why do I accept my ancient guys and reject those from Islam, the Mormons, and the Moonies? I reject them because they depart from what's been written in the New Testament.

Rigel

ksen- Out of curiosity, what evidence is sufficient for you?

EDIT- crossed posts