mata leao

johnny, the prophecy of tyre was brilliant, and it was fulfilled to the very letter, you just cant see the forest for the trees, and I have all the authority in the world to call alexanders' bisexuality (immoral)(albeit it is a side issue in the discussionof the tyre propehcy)....I am a Christian fundamentalist! Homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God and he wiped Sodom and Gomorrah off the map with fire and brimstone, in large part, because of it.and no amount of liberal left theological revisionism can change what the Bible clearly says....and johhnny, please keep the thread on track and dont try to derail it with a fight over homosexuality. abortion, in my opinion, is an even greater abomination, fwiw, again OT.

Johnny Skeptic

But you need to accurately date the prophecy as being made before Nebuchadnezzar's invasion of Tyre before you call it a prophecy, and you haven't done that.

Now please, it was YOU who brought up bisexuality and immorality. It is YOU who need to stay on topic. If you wish to try to reasonably prove that the Bible writers always spoke for God and never for themselves, then please start a new thread and attempt to do so. I will tell you in advance that the Bible itself admits that tampering with the texts is possible. Revelation 18-19 say "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." If tampering with the texts were not possible, there would have been no need for the warnings. The contents of the New Testament Canon were voted on, and the vote was close. So much for Biblical innerancy.

mata leao

okay ( I delete my reference to alexanders' alleged immoral bisexuality), and I apologize to alexander and any of his living heirs, for all i know alexander was a cigar smokin' man's man like Hemingway or Patton who liked the ladies..now, can we get back on topic please?

Johnny Skeptic

Yes indeed. Please accurately date the Tyre prophecy.

Jack the Bodiless

There is absolutely NO reason to believe that the Tyre prophecy "succeeded" AT ALL, and certainly not "to the letter"!

Nebby FAILED to perform the specific acts that Ezekiel said he WOULD perform, and the whole "let's pretend it was about Alexander" excuse is a CHRISTIAN APOLOGETIC that was invented BECAUSE Nebby failed.

There is certainly no reason AT ALL to assume that the "prophecy" was DIVINELY INSPIRED, given the amount of FUDGING needed to create even the SEMBLANCE of a "fulfilled prophecy". Even the "destroyed and not rebuilt" part had to be re-worked by apologists because Tyre was NOT permanently destroyed! (and it's very, very obvious that Ezekiel was referring to the city itself: "rock of Tyre scraped clean" and so forth).

The real question here is this: why should ANYONE believe that the Tyre prophecy was successful, or divinely inspired?

NO reason has been given.

John A. Broussard

Why are you so annoying?

mata leao answers only those questions he has an answer for.

Since he can't even explain what happened on the day that Joshua made the sun stand still, how do you expect him to be able to give an accurate date to something as esoteric as the Tyre prophecy?

Sauron

Sounds like you're evading the topic. You have outstanding questions about your claims on the "Hebrew way of thinking"; don't you think it would be better to wrap up your unfinished business on that topic first, before opening up another can of worms?

Apparently not.

Interesting claim. Why do you think that Ezekiel would have been "trained" as a bureaucrat?

1. In point of fact, the Jews do not despise the Tyrians; see my previous post on this topic.

2. And I'm still waiting on you to provide any proof of forced "concubinry".

All the more reason for you to explain why you think that Ezekiel would have been treated "fairly well" by the Babylonians.

1. The Greeks weren't even major players in the Mediterranean at this time. Athens wasn't a democracy yet, and it wouldn't see its Golden Age for another century and a half; Sparta was even further behind.

2. Still waiting on proof for your claims about slavery / children / sex trade. And yes - I do want specific proofs for the very detailed claims you made -- not general comments about ancient slavetrading.

Not really. The Babylonian "captivity" included a very small percentage of the Jews. And a loss of Babylonian hegemony in the Med wouldn't affect Babylon's ability to continue the captivity of Jews back in the capital city of Babylon.

You're only off by a century and a half of Greek history. :rolling:

No, the prophecy failed.

My, how creative of you. Please provide evidence that the Babylonians consulted Ezekiel or listened to his prophecy, and were motivated by it.

Tyre's sense of security was not false; everything they believed would happen actually did happen. They were safe in their island fortress -- contrary to the prophecy.

Another interesting claim. Please provide proof.

Except that you haven't explained:

1. why the Greeks need "cover" at all;
2. why Ezekiel couldn't just have named a future conqueror;
3. there is nothing unexpected or miraculous about building a causeway;
4. Alexander still failed to destroy Tyre, as per the prophecy;

1. Since Ezekiel did not predict the death of Alexander, it's hardly a win for Ezekiel;

2. Since Tyre continued for centuries after Alexander, and exists today, the prophecy is still in trouble.

SUMMARY:
A fascinating story you wove above, right up there with Chariots of the Gods material. Once you get the historical, archaeological and textual errors straightened out, come on back.

mata leao

1. ezekiel trained by the Babylonians: brother sauron, may I call you brother sauron? please tell me you are just being coy here. I believe you said you had at least an undergraduate level education in mideast studies. Sauron its okay really, you are among friends here, and this thread is so advanced hardly no one is going to read it anyway, you can fess up if you may have exagerated your background here.....the use of literate young male captives as ministerial court "clerks" was common in the Egyptian and Babylonian court systems. This is 101 level material available in any treatise commonly taught to freshmen in survey courses........Sauron, if I am going to have to fight with you over something like this, I suspect it will take us a very long time to debate the Tyre prophecy. Would you like to kindly concede this elemetary fact?

Sauron

Still waiting on proof for all the various claims you made. Do you have it, or don't you?

mata leao

and sauron i am waiting for you to either concede on point 1 or admit that you have no sophisticated background in mideast studies OR to show that my contention concerning Ezekiel is outside the commonly accepted historical position on the Babylonian treatment of young literate male captives in the Babylonian court.