Gamera

Sure, ask the Jewish leaders who the Christians were. They knew. Or more likely the Jewish leades offered the information to deflect the growing anti-Semitism of the Empire against this new sect

Gamera

Well we have a well documented history of conflict between Rome and Judaism, a conflict the arosed Titus to invade Judea and raze Jerusalem to the ground. Rome did not do that to the 300 other mystery religions. That's because mystery religions had nothing to do with Judaism and Christianity, which were categorically different.

Judaism was tied up with Jewish nationalism. Thus the conflict with Rome. Christianity threatened Jewish nationalism. Thus the conflict between Judaism and Christianity.

I'm afraid all the pieces of the puzzle are historically present. I fail to see why you fail to see them.

It's a simple matter of Jews in the Empire trying to direct the scapegoating of the authorities against their own scapegoat, Christianity.

What part of this are you denying historically: The conflict between the Jews and Rome, or the conflict between Judaism and Christianity, or both?

spin

You're just bullshitting, Gamera. You know nothing of this and you don't know whether christianity, if it existed at the time, would have been considered any differently from Jewish messianism. You'd better come down from la-la-land.


spin

spin

Actually it was Vespasian who did the invasion. Titus just finished it off when Vespasian got the imperial nod.

What Rome did with other weirdo religions, you cannot say.

One can imagine the Jews in Rome staying awful quiet.

Well, no they're not. You are arguing based on a pack of assumptions. Don't be too disheartened, if no-one is interested in your assumptions.

It's a simple matter of Jews in the Empire trying to direct the scapegoating of the authorities against their own scapegoat, Christianity.

What part of this are you denying historically: The conflict between the Jews and Rome, or the conflict between Judaism and Christianity, or both?[/QUOTE]
Gawd, Gamera. You should know better than to assume what you need to demonstrate to make your comments. If history is too difficult for you, try something else, say origami.


spin

Gamera

Typical you, you've assumed your conclusion to attempt to prove it, failing utterly.

Again, what historical fact do you deny, the conflict between the Jews and Rome or the conflict between Judaism and Christianity. Let us know.

Gamera

[QUOTE=spin]Yep, like I say Titus destroyed Jerusalem, which is pretty good evidence of some conflict between Jews and Rome. But keep spinning.

Sure we can. They did nothing, since the other weirdo religions weren't associated with a restive state. But if you're asking us to prove a negative, don't bother. The burden's on you.

You might imagine that. The ongoing verbose conflict between Christians and Jews suggests the opposite. Again, are you denying the conflict, and do you need some handholding as far as the voluminous documents that substantiate it. Let us know.

Again, it is not an assumption that there was a conflict between Jews and Rome. Are you claiming that this isn't substantiated and do you need some handholding here? And again, it is not an assumpton that there was a conflict between Jews and Christians. Do you need some handholding here too?

Do you need some handholding about the conflict between Rome, Jews and Christians. Let me know. I'lll walk you through it.

Gamera

It would have been considered different by the Jews, and that's all we need to understand the dynamic.

Are you denying a Jew in Neros time couldn't identify the difference between standard Judaism and Christianity. If that's your claim, let me know and I'll walk you through it. You're going to need a lot of handholding on this, I can see, but I'm there for you.

Gamera

Simple, the Epicureans didn't control a restive state that was constantly on the verge of open insurgeny. Jews did.

There is no real evidence that the Empire had any interest in punishing ideologies per se, but rather groups associated with geopolitical power. The Jews were associated with Judea, a province at the cross roads of the middle east, that was constantly causing Rome problems. So Jews were suspect. And of course, were almost wiped out by Titus's scorged earth policy.

All this is well established and not really in doubt.

Why do you find it so odd that Christians, a sect considered "Jewish" would arouse empirial anger, especially if the Jews themselves scapegoated Christians, killling two birds with one stone: deflecting Rome's anti-semitism and reducing a problematic sect that seemed to threaten Jewish nationalism?

spin

I wasn't complaining about your statement about the conflict between the Jews and Rome. That is obvious, even to you. I merely clarifiedf a minor error on your part.


You are making a claim you simply cannot back up. Stop the empty rhetoric. You've got nothing.


I think your empty waffle is getting to you. You don't know when there was conflict between one messianic spin off group of Judaism came into conflict with other Jewish groups. It should be obvious to you that Paul was dealing with groups that had Jews as well as non-Jews. The burden is on you to stop retrojecting your modern ideas onto the specific past we are dealing with. Good luck.

I havwe no trouble with your comment about conflict between Jews and Rome. That's the one t hing we agree on. It's all the baggage that weighs you down.

Please do. I'll be thrilled to see youmake any of your points other than the obvious one about there being a conflict between the Jews and Rome. However, don't assume that the Jews in Rome made any noise whatsoever at the time.


spin

spin

How would you know?? This was a heterodox Judaism prior to the Pharisaic normalization of the religion. There were all sorts of wild varieties of Judaism in circulation, even gnostic varieties, so you wouldn't know what was considered by the Jews as a block, because there was such variety.

Standard Judaism, WTF is that in 64 CE??? Get real.

Please do, but first, I think you'll need a few courses in the state of Judaism in the first century. Your lack of knowledge is too obvious.


spin