PhilosopherJay

Hi Littlejohn,

Here's an earlier example of blasphemy against Christ from 3,000 BC in Cyprus, The Idol of Pomos, apparently a fertility symbol:



I think it is very cute that the idol is wearing an idol around its neck. Here's some recent information.

Here's another cool looking one from the same period:



Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Littlejohn

I did not well understand to what is adressed your ironical 'humor'.... I am not at all convinced that the graffiti of the Palatine Hill has been produced with the intention 'blasphemous', but rather with 'ironical' intention!...

However, I put a condition that if there was actually blasphemous intention on the part by the graffiti's author, certainly the objective was not the catholics faithful(*), but rather members by some gnostic sect. Remember that these gnostic sects were 'fiercely' attacked by the leaders themselves of catholic-christians .

Before closing, let me say that the graffiti of the Palatine Hill, when properly interpreted, contains a devastating truth for the 'sacred' lies by the catholic clergy. Unfortunately, no Italian erudite yet realized this and the precious archaeological find it is at risk of 'accidental' disappearance or destruction!...


Greetings
____________________________

Note:

(*) - in the second century, in which archaeological find is dated, these believers were strictly protected by the imperial power, which had 'sponsored' the birth of their own worship.


Littlejohn

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Notsri

It's in the Trial in the Court of Vowels:

Men weep and bewail their lot, and curse Cadmus with many curses for introducting Tau into the family of letters; they say it was his [Tau's] body that tyrants took for a model, his shape that they imitated, when they set up the erections on which men are crucified. Stauros the vile engine is called, and it derives its vile name from him... For my part I know none bad enough but that supplied by his own shape--that shape which he gave to the gibbet named stauros after him by men.

Mars Man

Apologies for getting back late...'tis a busy time of year.

As I see it, we could hold two points to be in question regarding any possible historical event which could have led to the specifics of the gospel narratives; one being whether any wooden instrument would have had a cross bar, or not, and the other being whether this type of instrument had even been used.

So, regarding that first point, I use, and tend to think it better to use, the English verb 'impale' simply because it's rather neutral, and can be seen to reasonably enough fit the general setting. (and, in seeing DCHindley's post #37, understand that it's one concept out there...regardless of by who)

As far as I can tell (and forgive me, no font here) zylon will more likely give us the idea of just a piece of wood: it fits the Hebrew etsu, and can be found at Gen 40:19; Deut 21:22, 23; Josh 8:29; 10:26; Esth 5:14 in such sense. It also carries the simple 'tree' idea.

stauros is said to appear in Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Xenophon in the sense of, especially, a pointed stake, or beam, although I have not followed through on that at all. Of course we can find it in Antiq. Jews at 18.10.10 where some 2,ooo are said to have been impaled. (Considering the geographical matter, wood was a rather valuable commodity, and it would simply seem to be more pragmatic to use just the single standing beam or log...and more torment, for sure...arms forced above the head)

I do recall in the past, having heard of perhaps what might be one two distinctions of instruments used by the Romans--the crux simplex, and would tend to see that as simply being the easier and more readily available thing...a single beam of wood without any cuttings or attachments which can then be used over and over again, or can then be put into housing, or so on.

Of course, regarding our question, who can really claim to know. Therefore, if we were to make an appeal to Ockham's razor, I would argue, and if we were to hold (for the argumentation purposes) that a wooden instrument had been used to execute the common criminal (or revolter), rather than use the English 'crucify' which inherently narrows the sense, it would be better to use the English impale which, being broader in sense, can fit both.

maryhelena

[WIKI]
While there seems to have been considerable fuss made over this new study re the type of instrument used for the gospel crucifixion storyline - there is a Wikipedia article that deals with the issues at hand. The subject of the new study is, seemingly, 'old hat'.

Dispute about Jesus' execution method

mountainman

So do I. How clever were these idolators? I am wondering whether the idol on the neck of the idol has itself an idol on its neck, and if so, whether the smaller idol is alo wearing a smaller idol, and so forth, and so forth, to incredulity.

This is similar to the "Orante" figure found in the Roman catacombs.
A female figure with upraised arms - associated with the "mother goddess".
The Orante was on the coinage of Roman emperors between 98 CE and310 CE.

aa5874

If we were to appeal to Ockham's razor then it is more likely that people were nailed to crosses in antiquity as can be found in the writings of antiquity.

There would have been no benefit for a person to attempt to historicise a fiction character using a method of execution that was not ever known or carried out at that time.

Johnny Skeptic

It is interesting to note that the scholar is an evangelical Christian, and a pastor.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/0...aims/?hpt=Sbin

stephan huller

Yeah well go to the Evangelical Textual Criticism blog (http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com) and read the comments you'd think this guy was the Antichrist or Christopher Hitchens! It's so stupid. Their logic is like when Irenaeus writes "In his book against Marcion, Justin does well say: "I would not have believed the Lord Himself, if He had announced any other than He who is our framer, maker, and nourisher. But because the only-begotten Son came to us from the one God, who both made this world and formed us, and contains and administers all things, summing up His own handiwork in Himself, my faith towards Him is steadfast, and my love to the Father immoveable, God bestowing both upon us."

Like Justin's alleged 'advice' is commendable! Talk about the cart leading the horse. But it's all okay if it's done in God's name. There was a time that I remember Protestant scholars would say 'I'll go where the evidence leads me.' What happened to those days!!!

Toto

Are you referring to the post on criticism by Caragounis? Or the earlier post?