Banzaibee

Been away for a few days, and come back to see weird arguments crop up all over, this is off topic, but this needs to be challenged.
Yes, I have. One of my University projects was on the construction of national identity during the Greek wars with reference to Troy, through 5th century red figure ceramics. The Troy of the Iliad is not hugely revealing of the Troy VIIa, and vice versa. This is my problem, the site of Troy can be challenged, and the Iliad Troy can be challenged. Matching them both up is a problem.

I have to say, yes, but that was several years ago.

The actual view that Troy VIIa is the main candidate for the Troy of the Illiad is “could be, dunno, no proof really”.

From the archaeological side, for example, the “military” design of storage spaces within the walls has been interpreted as a change in the social structure of “Trojan” society and is seen in other sites of the time. Secondly, the evidence of pottery is very iffy indeed. Some of the siege argument is based on the idea that less Mycenaean pottery indicates a war status vs Mycenaean Greeks. However, the quantity of Mycenaean pottery from the Greek mainland declined all over the place (e.g. Cyprus, the Levant) as well as at “Troy”. It could just be evidence of declining trade. Further identifying the pottery at Troy as Mycenaean is also iffy, as by this time the style was being produced all over the Aegean, even as far south as Cyprus.

Another problem is the dating of the “destruction” of Troy VIIa varies. This has a big impact as Mycenaean sites were also destroyed in this period, which is a bit odd if Troy VIIa is being sieged whilst back home your own cities are burning, certainly not the case in the Iliad. Furthermore there is no archaeological evidence for the destroyers to be Greeks at all. In fact, the opposite is true. Pottery evidence of Troy VIIb seems to infer a central Balkan influence, and the destruction of many Mycenaean sites at or around the same time as Troy VIIa might indicate a third party, probably migrating south. So again, hard to say it is the Troy of the Iliad. It might just be a siege of a city that happened alot in that region. It might be Troy, sieged by Thracians or some other tribe, but is it the source of the Iliad? “Could be, dunno, no proof really”.

What you have is a city that was destroyed through violence that is located in Asia Minor. Now, beyond that, it is speculation as to whether this is the Illiad Troy or not. Secondly, the Iliad Troy is itself unproven. Our main source to verify it is... The Odyssey....oops. It is true we have the texts referring to such a city in the right time frame and some pretty solid evidence of a siege like event. However on the other side we have evidence it was destroyed by someone non-Greek, the siege evidence is poor (the burning layer and tumbled walls might be a revolt), the wider destruction across Mycenaean sites, siege events are common in city state cultures so nothing unique to make this Homer's Troy, the iffy dating, the unreliable oral basis of the Iliad itself...and so on.

The idea that the Homeric world had a “fully integrated Iron age” is a non-runner. Bronze remained in use as a metal for tools and weapons up to and including the Roman Period. Warfare was more militia based in the Ancient world with a whole range of weapons and tools pressed into service. Even the image of the Archaic Greek Hoplite standing uniformly in phalanxes used bronze armour and a bronze tipped pike. Hoplites fought the Romans (and lost). So, how could Homer have known about "the proliferation of bronze age weaponry in the already fully integrated Iron Age"? He would have looked at it.

The Iliad, if it is anything, is a genealogical record; you will see this with endless pages of “bert, son of jeff, uncle of simon, slew bob, brother of sid, husband of sarah” (to paraphrase). Oral traditions record genealogies for centuries.

Erm, I am thinking how you would show a continuous occupation of a site for 1000 years. I would say the "assumption is it is not abandoned as Towns are substantial investments and useful things....".

As you say Illuim is conclusive proof that 13 centuries later they thought it was Troy, like we think it is Troy 33 centuries later. Sadly, the Romans also liked Atlantis. A fictional place made up by Plato based on Thera (although not proven). Many ancient writers parodied Atlantis as a fantasy, however there were other Roman writers who believed that Atlantis was real...... However this is not the issue. The basic argument is whether Troy V11a is the Troy of the Iliad or not, and as I said at the start, “dunno, could be”.

Personally I think we have found Troy, but I am also prepared to be very, very wrong. I also think Homer's Troy is a mish-mash of stories, and is not reliable. I think making Troy VIIa the site of Troy is wishfulfilment, it is a medium sized city with some evidence of burning, some buried human remains in the[edit] walls, and destruction.

Never seen one of them before.

Banzaibee

"Horus/Osiris of Egypt

In the Egyptian myth, Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable, as in “I and my Father are one.” Concerning Osiris, Walker says:

Of all savior-gods worshiped at the beginning of the Christian era, Osiris may have contributed
more details to the evolving Christ figure than any other. Already very old in Egypt, Osiris was
identified with nearly every other Egyptian god and was on the way to absorbing them all. He
had well over 200 divine names. He was called the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods.
He was the Resurrection and the Life, the Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god
who “made men and women to be born again.” Budge says, “From first to last, Osiris was to the
Egyptians the god-man who suffered, an died, and rose again, and reigned eternally in heaven.
They believed that they would inherit eternal life, just as he had done . . .”
Osiris’s coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and
Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’s star in the east, Sirius (Sothis),
significator of his birth . . .
Certainly Osiris was a prototypical Messiah, as well as a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten
in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the “plant of Truth.” . . . The cult of Osiris contributed
a number of ideas and phrases to the Bible. The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing
to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the “green pastures” and “still waters” of the
nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul to the body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow
of death (the Tuat). The Lord’s Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen
beginning, “O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.” Amen was also invoked at the end of every
prayer.

“The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word.”

Osiris was also the god of the vine and a great travelling teacher who civilized the world. He was the ruler and judge of the dead. In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and “the 72.” Like that of Jesus, Osiris’s resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal.

Osiris’s “son” or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Horus walked on water.
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”

Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive...men.html#horus

CBA doing the legwork after the troy epic (apologies for being boring).

gurugeorge

They may do - if they have a predisposition towards it, it can happen "on demand". If they're more towards the dysfunctional side of things they can be literally "tormented by spirits" day and night.

This isn't some fey daydreaming thing - these kinds of experiences of "meeting the Angel Gabriel" seem as real, to those who have them, as meeting Aunt Maude.

This is hard for rationalists to believe, because as I say they're not particularly prone to, or interested in, that kind of experience. But it is the religious experience par excellence (the other being the mystical, but that's different from the visionary).

I'd go so far as to say that nobody who hadn't had these kinds of experiences would ever hypothesise the existence of "gods" or "spirits" in the world. To the rational mind, used to ordinary, everyday reality, the idea of "gods" and "spirits" is nuts, there are obviously no such things to be experienced normally. Which is why the general rationalist thesis that "gods" are some kind of vague philosophical "response" to the world is itself quite silly. There is no need to imagine such things at all.

IOW it's not like this: there's an earthquake, and lots of people in the tribe die, then people speculate that there's some kind of "spirit" in the mountain that's causing trouble that has to be placated.

It's like this: the shaman sees spirits (which to him seem real), and because he has the same conviction about meeting those spirits as you or I would have about meeting Aunt Maude, his people take on trust that such things exist, so that when the earthquake happens, they appeal to those entities that they can't see, but that they trust someone else has seen.

The rationalist who isn't aware of the possibility and prevalence of visionary experience will take the former hypothesis, but it's just silly. Ordinary, rational people would not, off their own bat, invent "gods" and such nonsense to explain the world. People 10,000 years ago weren't all that different, and no less rational than people today.

No, they believed that such things existed because they were told by someone who was utterly convinced that they existed - because they'd "seen" them.

Didymus

Or they are Hellenistic. Or they are both. I can see you think these matters are cut and dried, but they are not.

He certainly is not.

How could Herman Melville have dreamed up Captain Ahab? How could Mohammad have dreamed up Allah?

(If you don't know who the "litterateurs" were, how do you know they were lowly? And what does literary merit have to do with historicity?)

Simplistic rubbish.

Ddms

Toto

This quote is from Barbara Walker link with attribution, who has not turned out to be a reliable source.

In particular, these claims are not supported:
--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

etc.

And this in particular

Is a misinterpretation of the paintings on the wall. Richard Carrier wrote a special article on it here.

I suspect that there are valid parallels between Horus and Jesus, but whenever these invalid parallels are repeated, it just gives Christians a chance to pour scorn on the whole question.

Banzaibee

Heh, my bad for wanting to go to bed after doing the Troy response, I retract that link and will do my own digging.

PhilVaz

-- Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25....
-- His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”)


He was of royal descent (ding ding ding)


-- At 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized...
-- Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer”...
-- He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses”...


He performed miracles (healing miracles are associated with Horus-the-Child)


-- exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead
-- Horus walked on water
-- His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,”....
-- He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”....
-- Horus was transfigured on the Mount
-- He was crucified between two thieves
-- buried for three days in a tomb
-- and resurrected
-- He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,”....
-- He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion
-- He came to fulfill the Law
-- Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
-- Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”


2 out of 20 ain't bad.

See my All About Horus: An Egyptian Copy of Christ?

Phil P

Banzaibee

Yes, I retracted it. Next.

Solitary Man

Banzaibee - I'm seriously questioning who you are. Why are you responding to me as if I were talking to you, when I responding to patcleaver? And how in the world are you a credentialed archaeologist and still do the high school egegrious error of taking a link to some website as authority

I just got back from vacation, and I have read the Troy post yet, so I'll address it tomorrow.

andrewcriddle

One of the problems here is that the earliest clear example of Dionysus specifically turning water into wine is found in The Adventures of Leucippe and Clitophon by the 2nd century novelist Achilles Tatius. It is very possible that Achilles Tatius is here imitating the Gospel of John.

Andrew Criddle