TedM

Are you saying there were no believers in the resurrection until enough disciples allowed themselves to be put to death? Did the disciples believe in the resurrection? If so, why?

john_v_h

To certify his divinity and divine mandate, and to make "sense" of the tale of the man-god who came to conquer death.

Minimalist

Why would the Jews even have a crucified messiah? Their vision was of a great leader who would do all sorts of great things here on earth including rebuilding the temple... which is pretty odd because when jesus was supposedly walking around there WAS a temple doing all the things which Jeremiah claimed would be done.

aeebee50

I am with you. Others must not be reasonable or willing to accept history.

Toto

But why should they? And why play your game?

Christian apologists like to get people to "assume" that 90% of the gospel story is historical, and then "prove" that the resurrection must have happened.

That's not how legitimate scholarship is done.

TedM

You are being too paranoid again Toto. Like this is a scholarship forum...

It's a simple question and I'm curious as to whether there are good answers.
If there are not perhaps we can conclude that the premise is flawed. Or perhaps our answers could lead us to conclude that Jesus really was resurrected IF the premise is true. It's a thought exercise based on a commonly accepted premise.

TedM

Are you saying he would have to have claimed to be divine? Or something else? All I said was that he had been a preacher with a following...

Toto

Don't try to psychoanalyze me. And this forum is not confined to scholars, but prefers scholarly standards.

I believe that the premise is fatally flawed. I don't see how any answer could lead you to conclude that Jesus really was resurrected. I know that William Lane Craig tries to pull this trick, but it won't work.

But for the record, there have been a variety of attempts to explain the belief in a resurrection without an actual resurrection: wishful thinking by the disciples who missed Jesus - mass hallucination - psychoactive substances (such as ergot, or possibly cannabis) - actual fraud. There is a theory that Jesus was not actually dead when he was put in the tomb, and he revived for long enough to speak to this disciples.

There is also a bizarre theory that Jesus had a twin who was separated at birth, and that after his crucifixion, the disciples spotted the twin.

If you find that any of these explanations fail, that would not prove that Jesus was actually resurrected. Even the twin missing at birth theory is more likely than the idea that a dead body rose from the grave.

TedM

Which one makes the most sense to you? Or can you not come up with an explanation that makes sense of the premise? I can, and it doesn't require a resurrection.

I don't consider this to be a trick. That's why I suggested you are paranoid.

TedM

..