Toto

I think Diogenes was agreeing with me - one would not expect this to have been investigated.

There was a revolution in thought around the time of the Enlightenment, you know. Most modern people no longer believe in a demon haunted world. Even Christians have to try to pretend that there is a rational basis for their religious beliefs. But even today, gullibility prevails over skepticism in many areas.

We have nothing that looks like a record. We have mythologized tales about him that modern scholars realize are literary creations and cannot be accepted at face value without extensive massaging of the data.

You have given no reason for assuming that anyone could have investigated the existence of Jesus, or would have bothered.

Why not? Did anyone investigate the historical Hercules?

That's the point - we cannot assume that anyone questioned the existence of Jesus and investigated it. If they had, we would probably know about that.

TedM

This says all I need to know to curtail discourse with you. These views are too unsupported and outside the box for me to take seriously.

aa5874

Again, you show very little understanding of the Pauline writings and the NT Canon.

The crucifixion of Jesus was considered GOD'S GREATEST LOVE to mankind.

Galatians 2:20 KJV And in gJohn, it was the Greatest LOVE STORY for Mankind.

John 15:13 KJV Please, an historical Jesus cannot be defended. Everything you say in an attempt to to defend an historical Jesus can be DEBUNKED Instantly and Easily.

What a load of BS. You put forward a most absurd notion. I am lost for words for your inability to recognise the baselessness of your argument.

May I remind you that if Jesus did exist that people who knew him may well have been ALIVE AFTER c 70 CE.

If Jesus did have thousands of people following him around on a daily basis then we would NOT expect all of them to have died before c 70 CE

You should also be familiar that Apologetic sources claimed an Apostle of Jesus called John LIVED until the time of Trajan c 98-117 CE.

Again, more loads of BS and STRAW clutching.

Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the elder, Pliny the younger, and Celsus did EXACTLY what you claimed was NOT expected.

We would expect ancient writers to mention events and people who IMPACTED the society in which they lived.

Philo, Pliny the Elder, and Josephus mentioned the Essenes, Tacitus and Pliny the younger mentioned Christians and LATER in the mid 2nd century Celsus mentioned the Jesus cults and stories.

Please, get familiar with writings of antiquity and desist from making AD HOC statements that are worthless.

This is a serious discussion.

An historical Jesus cannot be defended so anything you say about an HJ will be RAPIDLY debunked.

TedM

You seem to be referring to a thorough investigation with a full report given. I was referring to investigation at a smaller level. Of course people asked one another. Do you think Jews in 100AD had no inkling about the history of Christianity? That they didn't know what the Christians believed when Paul had travelled for 20-30 years across thousands of miles and started numerous churches? When Jewish Christians were so worked up that they had Paul sent to Rome for imprisonment? When Jews like Paul stoned and persecuted the earliest Christians? You think they didn't know who Paul's Jesus was? I just can't swallow that. They have managed to maintain their DNA for nearly 2000 years after the destruction of Israel. I think they knew who Jesus was in the beginning and would have raised a STINK had he suddenly been transformed from a heavenly Messiah to a Galilean preacher that they were being accused of killing. It's not as if Jews simply died out after their dispersion..

IF it was validated at the smaller level--ie it was commonplace knowledge--then there was no need for a thorough investigation. This appears to be the most reasonable explanation as to why we have no record of thorough investigations but we have plenty of references to early leaders saying to the skeptics: If you don't believe it go check it out for yourselves!

Toto

What are you referring to here? Which early leaders? I think some of the later church fathers told people to go check out the Acts of Pilate, but this critical document is missing (although there is an obvious forgery of that name.)

How would it be possible for anyone after the Jewish Wars to investigate the existence of Jesus?

Iskander

No, there are no serious discussions anywhere on this planet and it has always been like this. There are only approved discussions in a sheltered environment.

You sound serious here, but not there.

aa5874

Again, we cannot investigate IMAGINARY evidence and imaginary events.

The HJ argument is upside down, and inside out.

HJers FIRST needed Credible sources and then show that those sources described THEIR Jesus the LITTLE known preacher.

Now, they are attempting to re-construct their Jesus from a 100 year BLACK HOLE of history with Discredited sources and a bunch of Myth Fables about demons, angels, the holy ghost, a son of god, Satan and the God of Moses.

We have NO DATED 1st century source that can show that characters called Jesus, Paul and the disciples had any impact on Jewish society.

TedM

I don't read your posts, but am curious: Why do you do this again, and don't you ever get tired of doing it?

Iskander

You are right, where are the relevant e-mails, and video recordings? , are some photos, or even newspaper cuttings too much to expect?

DNA and fingerprints are now a routine identifying procedure; surely Jesus the SON OF GOD could have easily prepared that for us.


He did not do that, but you know why, don’t you?

TedM

Brain burp. Sorry..I guess I was replaying Acts in my mind when I wrote that. It of course is full of that kind of rhetoric.

Ask their fellow Jews. See my post above.