PhilosopherJay

Hi maryhelena,

This is great stuff, well laid out and explained.

Now it seems we have at least 4 dates for Jesus/Christ's birth: 25 BCE, 22 BCE, 4 BCE and 6 CE. We also have at least 4 dates for his death: 19 CE, 30-32 CE, 36 CE, and the reign of Claudius - 41-54 CE (according to Irenaeus).

At this rate Jesus is going to end up having more incarnations than the Buddha.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

maryhelena

:hysterical:

And I'm just about to add another one......

maryhelena

The ‘problem’ of the Josephan TF is not going to be solved by arguing for interpolation. That approach is futile. The story the TF contains, a wonder-worker, a wise man crucified under Pilate, is a story that has a long history. Whether Josephus wrote that story is incidental. He most probably did not originate it - probably only adjusted it or updated it. Hence, whatever wording one finds that is questionable re the Josephan manner of writing, does not change the fact that the TF is where it is in Antiquities. Context of around 19 c.e. (And of course, if ‘Josephus’ is simply a pseudonym for an individual, or for a ‘school’ of writers, is purely of academic interest - the source, Antiquities, has to be dealt with whatever it’s origins).

And that source, Antiquities, reflects a keen interest in OT prophetic concerns. As does the gospel of Matthew. Yes, our modern minds care little for such contrived and speculative pursuits. But that modern mind-set will not help us in a search for early Christian origins.

If Josephus, in the TF, is simply making use (for whatever purpose) of an old story - how far back does that story go? Traces of that story can be found in what is known as Slavonic Josephus. A source that is usually discarded because it does not fit with the consensus interpretation of the gospel JC story - i.e. JC was born around 4 b.c. and died around 30/33 c.e. Slavonic Josephus contradicts that interpretation. To imagine that a JC historicists is going to run the consensus JC story backwards - well, that’s the big forgery that Eusebius has so much trouble with. The JC historicists have no alternative but to reject the storyline in Slavonic Josephus - as Eusebuis had to so many years ago. For the ahistoricists/mythicists the existence of a story such as that in Slavonic Josephus should be grist to their mill...

What the Slavonic Josephus story does do, as does the ‘forgery’ re a crucifixion in the 7th year of Tiberius, is to demonstrate that the JC story was fluid. And because that story is fluid it is not the story, or the history, of one flesh and blood figure. Rather it is a story about a certain place and time, viewed through, or interpreted, via prophetic interests. That, in a nutshell, is the gospel story about it’s JC figure.

From my earlier post and chart, it is evident that the Josephan writer has had a hand in supporting that gospel JC storyboard. Without Josephus, gLuke could not have been written. The change in gLuke, the new updated version of the wonder-doer story, set from 6 c.e., would not have been possible without Josephus. Rather than trying for contorted explanations to handle the contradictions between gMatthew and gLuke - in order to have one birth date for the assumed historical gospel JC - the contradictions need to be evaluated on their own merits. Contradictions that lead to the JC story being a moving story, a fluid story that relates to Jewish history and not to a historical gospel JC (of whatever variant).

How far back does the wonder-doer story go? If 36 c.e. is the last possible dating for gLuke’s crucifixion story - then the wonder-doer story goes back well over 100 years - long before it’s gLuke climax in 36 c.e. It’s back to Alexander Jannaeus and the Toledot Yeshu. Yes, that’s a source that is readily discredited - again because of the assumption re a historical JC. It’s that assumption re a historical gospel JC that is the stumbling block in the way of searching for early Christian origins. The wonder-doer story needs to be traced as far back as is possible - all sources need to be put on the table and thoroughly examined without those JC historicist eye-glasses...Christianity, whatever it’s specific origins, was long in the cooking pot!

Another chart...

Toledot Yeshu: Birth in year 3671 of Alexander Jannaeus (about 90 b.c.) Death in time of Queen Helene - identity questioned. (Salome wife of Alexander Jannaeus).	Slavonic Josephus: Birth narrative set around the 15th year of Herod the Great. (25 or 22 b.c.).	gJohn: gMark: gMatthew:	Josephus Antiquites Book 18 ch 13. The wonder-doer Slavonic Josephus story is now "He was [the] Christ".	The Infancy Gospel of James:	gLuke: 15th year of Tiberius: Pilate governor of Judea, 29 c.e. Birth narrative of JC and JtB in time of Quirinius in 6 c.e.
Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch; there Yeshu remained until the eve of the Passover.Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple .....Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afteenoon prayer,.....On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied.	Wonder-doer crucified under Pilate. Josephus dating of Pilate ambiguous, can be dated to 19 .c.e. Wonder-doer figure is not yet 50 years old in 19 to 21 c.e. "....they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us". "...servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher,—that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude,—many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept". Herodias married to Philip. Eusebius mention of a crucifixion story in the 7th year of Tiberius, 19 or 21 c.e.	Crucified under Pilate: gJohn: JC, not yet fifty years old. gMark and gMatthew have Herodias married to Philip. Mention of Archelaus a later addition (4 b.c.- 6.c.e.). Prior to this later edition - gMatthew's JC born anytime during the rule of Herod the Great. (thus not in conflict with the Slavonic Josephus timeline). Eusebius mention of a crucifixion story in the 7th year of Tiberius, 19 or 21 c.e.	Crucified under Pilate: " Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day". Herodias not married to Philip. Antiquities gives Pilate 10 year rule - but Gratus served only 4 years re his removal and appointing of High Priests. Josephus has added 7 pseudo-historical years (prophetic years) to the rule of Gratus (giving him 11 years) in order to accomodate gLuke's new birth narrative in 6 c.e. i.e. gLuke's JC could not have been crucified in the 7th year of Pilate - too young. Hence the need to re-arrange the years Pilate ruled in Judea. Pilate also given 7 pseudo-historical years from 29 c.e. to 36 c.e. - close to the death of Tiberius.	The son of Mary: .."a great King has been born to Israel." The son of Elizabeth and Zacharias: "His son is destined to be king over Israel." Elizabeth the "kinswoman" of Mary.	Crucified under Pilate. If JC birth narrative in 6 c.e. = crucifixion, at age 30 years, in 36 c.e. "....but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel".And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.... They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen." Herodias not married to Philip. gLuke's birth narrative in 6 c.e. and his JC being about 30 years when crucified in 36 c.e. required that Pilate's dating be adjusted - Josephus adding 7 pseudo-historical years to Pilate from 29 c.e. to 36 c.e. Josephus also has JtB alive at that time..

JoeWallack

JW:
Jewdie mind tricks only work on weak minded fools. "What many believed was that Jesus had no human form, ever." Homily don't play that game. The point was that Marcion, Marcion, believed Jesus existed for a relatively short time by historical standards and existed in appearance only. Fivethirtyeight probably did not exist back than but if Marcion was not the main opponent of the orthodox, he was a serious contender and appears to have gotten more (bad) press than anyone else.

You are the one posturing an extreme position, "no one". I am just providing a necessary qualification.

For those who need points sharply explained, as belief in the length of time Jesus existed decreases, you move towards the conclusion that Jesus did not exist. Related criteria using Greco-Roman Biography are:

1) Who was Jesus' father?

2) Who was Jesus' mother?

3) What were the details of his birth?

4) What was his background?

5) What were his natural accomplishments?

Using Marcion's beliefs the answers to these questions would be the same/similar to someone who never existed.

And since you invoke Celsus, via Origen, Celsus believed that all subsequent Gospels were based on an original narrative and polemics. Again, not direct evidence of belief of lack of belief in HJ, but in that direction.

In the big picture, Paul tells us that his primary source of information about Jesus is revelation and has the need to promote Jesus to those who's primary source of information about Jesus is Paul. "Mark" has a primary theme that historical witness to Jesus did not promote him. All of this is comParable to what other ancient?

Yes, there is no direct evidence for MJ (how would you have first-hand evidence for non-existence by the way) so no one could possibly prove MJ. But the evidence for HJ is very weak by modern standards and even though ancient standards of evidence are not important anyway, the evidence for HJ is also weak by ancient standards.


Joseph

Church Tradition. Noun/Verb. A mysterious entity which unlike Jesus who apparently could only incarnate and disincarnate once, can be repeatedly summoned at an Apologist's whim as solid undisputed evidence from a contemporary institution when it supports Christian assertian and than just as quickly disappear as only the opinion of men and not Scripture when it goes against Christian Assertian.

ErrancyWiki

outhouse

and that is exactly what we would expect to find from people writing about a man they knew little about from another culture

outhouse

why would the roman writers, decades after his death even have a clue about all that. ???


its not even a decent loaded question, your trying to stuff 45 shells in a 22mag



After growing up in squalor, with a social status below that of a peasant, he did hand labor probably with stone

traveled around Galilee healing and teaching of the coming kingdom of god. Traveled to small poverty striken villages and lived off dinner scraps with a small group of below the peasant class of fishermen who followed him. he also preached against the roman oppression through taxation, he targeted tax collectors and tried a peaceful method of zealotry knowing violence was useless against the roman army.

was dunked in the river by a wildman JtB and took up his teaching, he was said to have created unique parables and metaphors

died a roman death for tax evasion, and causing a stink in the temple fighting the hated corrupt jewish governement. In the temple there was the possibility for some 400,000 jew's in attendance who could have caught wind or witnessed or knew of his heroic actions against the oppression. these actions in fron of this large crowd made him famous and his legend grew from his mortal death at the hand of his oppressors.


mythology was written about this man EXACTLY as we would expect from the literate culture that built a movement around him


as you can see, there is a over abundance of natural acccomplishments

aa5874

Well, let me TEST your statement because it appears to be completely without any logics.

If the Gospels and the Pauline writings were ALREADY COMPOSED before the Roman writers then we would EXPECT that they should have known of the "biography" of Jesus.

The supposed Pauline writer was IN ROME ITSELF and in the Roman Empire telling people that Jesus had a NAME above EVERY OTHER NAME and that every knee should BOW to the name of the LORD Jesus Christ including the Defied Emperors of Rome.

It is just hopelessly absurd that Roman writers would NOT have written about "the biography of Jesus Christ".

Philippians 2 It is clear that the NT Canon is historically bogus and that the "TF" MUST be a forgery if Jesus was an OBSCURE NOBODY from the Backwater of Judea.

Duvduv

It is more than clear that here in Philippians 2 we are dealing with part of a composite of one text with the part about Jesus inserted very dutifully by the church. If you leave out that part here is what you get which is very smooth without interruption. We see God is mentioned at the end of the passage and the word can easily fit in the beginning as well:

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from [being united with Christ - why specifically "united"?] [God], if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. [.......verses 5-11]12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

The way verses 5-11 are expressed as a prayerful calling out which is not in line with the way the writer addresses his audience before and after, it is clear that those verses were interpolated inadvertently from a marginal gloss or sermon and left there because it sounded good.

aa5874

Of course, if you TAMPER with the evidence and make it say what it did NOT then it will be "smooth".

Please, in court trials, tampering with evidence to make it "smooth" is a crime.

The statements in Philippians cannot be ALTERED in order to get the results you want.

It is the actual written EVIDENCE that Matters.

Duvduv

Come on, AA. What possible inherent reason could you offer that would totally reject the idea of composite writings in the epistles? Did you read my posting and follow the logic of what I was saying about Philippians 2?

The bottom line of these letters being composites as I have suggested in Philippians, Romans, Titus, is that there was NO PAUL as the writer of any epistles. That the composites were made not in the hallowed first or second centuries but later in the 4th century.

Reread my posting #71 on Pauline Epistles on Resurrection of Jesus.