Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 03-31-2013, 02:36 AM

outhouse · 03-31-2013, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

. My input here hardly constitutes a brick wall. I am trying to encourage discussion of facts..

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You cannot even supply one verse from the synoptics that can be attributed as having direct influence from Isis, let alone a foundation of mythology.

There is nothing in the bible about Dec 25 either. Whats next? easter bunnies and unicorns?

You avoid facts, because they go against you. Not even in the Egyptian gospels do we see direct connections.

outhouse · 03-31-2013, 10:21 AM

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andrewcriddle · 04-02-2013, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Perhaps the best argument against the absorption of Egyptian ideas at the earliest period of Christianity is the fact that Clement of Alexandria and (apparently) the Alexandrian Church he represented resist the idea of Jesus being born from a woman. Two examples from the same book of what Clement understood by the concept of 'virginity.' The first is a citation of contemporary advocates of Mary's virginity - it is clearly not the view of the Egyptian Church as such:

Quote:

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin. Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin, in the concealment of the mysteries of the truth. "And she brought forth, and yet brought not forth," Says the Scripture; as having conceived of herself, and not from conjunction. Wherefore the Scriptures have conceived to Gnostics; but the heresies, not having learned them, dismissed them as not having conceived. [Strom 7.16]

The background to this appears to be the claim that Mary was not only physically a virgin after the conception of Jesus but remained physically a virgin after the birth of Jesus.

See Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary

Andrew Criddle

Tom Sawyer · 04-03-2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Wait, so the woman who had a kid with her brother is being held up by someone as an example of virginal purity?

I'm thinking that the people who compared Isis to Mary didn't really know a whole lot about Egyptian religion.

Thanks Tom. Isis is not a woman, but a goddess, as we might say is the Queen of Heaven, the Blessed Virgin Mary of the Immaculate Conception.

As I recall, Mary purportedly "had a kid" with Jehovah, her Eternal Father in Heaven, and yet is held up by some as an example of virginal purity. Is not this just the same mythical contradiction we see in the very concept of virgin mother?

Those who are in denial about the abundant continuity between Isis and Mary don't "really know a whole lot about Egyptian religion."

It is quite wrong to imagine that the myth of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ sprang forth fully formed in Christianity like Athena from the brow of Zeus. The virgin birth is a deep archetypal mythic story, with abundant evolutionary continuity with its memetic sources in older religion.

Ya, nobody's claiming that Christianity came up with original concepts, let alone the overdone virginal birth trope. What I'm saying is that there isn't much similarity between Mary and Isis.

There are generic titles such as "queen of heaven" and "mother of saviour kid', but their personalities and stories aren't similar.

gurugeorge · 04-04-2013, 10:08 AM

"Maiden" is itself partly connected with virginity, as in "maidenhead", i.e. hymen. I suspect "maiden" was a polite way of saying "virgin" in Victorian and Edwardian Egyptian scholarship, and the term has just stuck, and some scholars think it must mean something other than virgin. i.e. storm in a teacup.

andrewcriddle · 04-04-2013, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

"Maiden" is itself partly connected with virginity, as in "maidenhead", i.e. hymen. I suspect "maiden" was a polite way of saying "virgin" in Victorian and Edwardian Egyptian scholarship, and the term has just stuck, and some scholars think it must mean something other than virgin. i.e. storm in a teacup.

FWIW maiden originally meant virgin. See wiki/maiden

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-04-2013, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

"Maiden" is itself partly connected with virginity, as in "maidenhead", i.e. hymen. I suspect "maiden" was a polite way of saying "virgin" in Victorian and Edwardian Egyptian scholarship, and the term has just stuck, and some scholars think it must mean something other than virgin. i.e. storm in a teacup.

FWIW maiden originally meant virgin. See wiki/maiden

Andrew Criddle

Not, if I'm reading the entry correctly, according to the OED:

Quote:

maiden, n. and adj.

Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈmeɪdn/ , U.S. /ˈmeɪdən/
Forms: OE mæden, OE mægden, OE–eME mæiden, OE (Northumbrian)– maiden, eME mædene... (Show More)
Etymology: Cognate with Old High German magatīn (Middle High German magetīn ) < a Germanic diminutive (see -en suffix1) of a word meaning ‘maiden, girl’, represented by Old English mægeð , mægð , Old Frisian maged , megith , Middle Dutch māghet (Dutch maagd ), Old Saxon magath (Middle Low German māget ), Old High German magad (Middle High German magt , German Magd maidservant), Gothic magaþs maid, virgin; probably related to the word for ‘boy, young man’ represented by may n.3See maid n.1 for discussion of the semantic overlap of maiden and maid . See also maid n.1 for discussion of the Middle English plural forms.

With sense A. 2b compare Hellenistic Greek παρθένος (masculine) (N.T.) and post-classical Latin virgo.(Show Less)
A. n. I. Senses referring to human beings. 1. Thesaurus »
Categories »

a. A girl; a young (unmarried) woman; = maid n.1 2a. Also: †a female infant (obs.). Now chiefly literary, arch., and regional.

OE Ælfric Gloss. (St. John's Oxf.) 301 Puella, mæden oððe geong wifman.
OE West Saxon Gospels: Matt. (Corpus Cambr.) ix. 24 Gað heonun; nys þys mæden [c1200 Hatton mægdon] dead soðlice ac heo slæpð.
?c1200 Ormulum (Burchfield transcript) l. 4107 To clippenn swa þe cnapess shapp. & toffrenn lac forr maȝȝdenn.
c1275 (▸?a1200) Laȝamon Brut (Calig.) (1963) 2214 He nom of þan monkunne þreo swiðe feire mæidene.
a1325 (▸c1250) Gen. & Exod. (1968) l. 2749 Hirdes wulden ðe maidenes deren, Oc moyses ðor hem gan weren.
a1425 (▸a1400) Prick of Conscience (Galba & Harl.) (1863) 4966 Alle men sal ryse þan þat ever had life, Man and woman, mayden and wyfe.
c1480 (▸a1400) St. Thomas Apostle 58 in W. M. Metcalfe Legends Saints Sc. Dial. (1896) I. 130 A madyne com amange þam all of hebrow borne In-to þe land.
1488 (▸c1478) Hary Actis & Deidis Schir William Wallace (Adv.) v. l. 580 In Lanryk duelt a gentill woman thar, A madyn myld.
c1540 (▸?a1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 1363 Maydons for mornyng haue þere mynde loste.
1559 W. Baldwin et al. Myrroure for Magistrates George Plantagenet f. lxxvi, A mayden of a noble house and olde.
a1616 Shakespeare All's Well that ends Well (1623) i. iii 145 (Gods mercie maiden) dos it curd thy blood To say I am thy mother?
1710 Tatler No. 252. ⁋5 We..have a Boy and a Girl: The Lad Seventeen, the Maiden Sixteen.
1781 Westm. Mag. 9 709 No Pantaloon with peaked beard to-night Shall screaming boys and trembling maidens fright.
1860 J. Tyndall Glaciers of Alps i. xxiv. 173 A vigorous English maiden might have ascended the [ice] fall without much difficulty.
1887 C. Bowen tr. Virgil Æneid ii, in Virgil in Eng. Verse 121 Round it advance in procession unwedded maiden and boy.
1908 L. M. Montgomery Anne of Green Gables xxxv. 395 With..Stella Maynard and..Priscilla Grant, she soon became intimate, finding the latter pale spiritual-looking maiden to be full..of mischief.
1925 Windsor Mag. Mar. 398/2 Nothing could be more charming than a Nauruan maiden.
1968 A. Diment Great Spy Race i. 8, I was one of the new knights..come to rescue the lower-middle class maiden from the dragon of boredom.
1991 Twenty Twenty Spring 90/1 Celtic myths, with their depiction of the ‘Triple Goddess’ of maiden, mother and crone.

b. the answer to a maiden's prayer : an eligible bachelor. Also in extended use.

[1801 in Catal. Prints: Polit. & Personal Satires (Brit. Mus.) (1947) VIII. 52 The maid of all-work's prayer!!]
1926 G. H. Maines & B. Grant Wise-crack Dict. 5/1 Answer to a maiden's prayer, He's good looking.
1935 Mademoiselle Aug. 15 Here, you Freshmen, Seniors, et al, is the answer to a maiden's prayer.
1957 J. Fleming Maiden's Prayer ii. 109 You're the answer to a maiden's prayer, dear heart. No need for you to do a stroke of work, you can marry money and live the life of a gentleman.
1971 J. Brunner Honky in Woodpile xi. 83, I was still in college. Thought he was the greatest..answer to a maiden's prayer!
1987 Financial Times 19 May 26/4 The US dollar's fall..has made US companies much more attractive to foreign publishers... ‘It's the answer to a maiden's prayer,’ says..an analyst.

a. A virgin; spec. the Virgin Mary ( †maiden Mary). (Not always clearly distinguishable from senses A. 1a, A. 3.) Cf. maid n.1 1a. Now rare.

OE Laws of Cnut (Nero) ii. lii. §1. 346 Gif hwa mæden nydnæme [L. si quis uiolenter uirginem opprimat].
?c1200 Ormulum (Burchfield transcript) l. 2102 Þeȝȝ wenndenn þatt ȝho wære wif Acc ȝho wass maȝȝdenn clene.
a1225 MS Lamb. in R. Morris Old Eng. Homilies (1868) 1st Ser. 77 Þet hali meiden onswerede and seide quomodo [etc.].
c1300 Holy Cross (Laud) 68 in C. Horstmann Early S.-Eng. Legendary (1887) 3 (MED), I-bore he was of þe maydene Marie.
▸a1387 J. Trevisa tr. R. Higden Polychron. (St. John's Cambr.) (1876) VI. 319 (MED), Þe kyng ȝaf here lond for to bulde tweie abbayes of maydons.
a1400 (▸a1325) Cursor Mundi (Vesp.) 28483, I..forced sum woman with nede, and maþens reft þair maþenhede.
c1440 (▸?c1350) in G. G. Perry Relig. Pieces in Prose & Verse (1914) 29 Goddes sone tuke flesche and blode of þe blyssed maydene Marie.
a1470 Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll.) 1093 A clene mayden I am for hym and for alle other.
c1540 (▸?a1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 2940 Þat comes but to harme, Gers maidnes be mart, mariage fordone.
1600 Shakespeare Much Ado about Nothing iv. i. 88 Why then are you no maiden.
a1639 W. Whately Prototypes (1640) ii. xxxiv. 157 Though Shechem had done the Maiden this wrong to devirginate her.
1855 Fraser's Mag. 51 92 The maiden is pure all mays above.
1871 H. James Watch & Ward in Atlantic Monthly Dec. 705/1 Don't go back to Roger in a hurry! You're not the unspotted maiden you were but two short days ago.
1904 Hymns Anc. & Mod. No. 55 A maiden pure and undefiled Is by the Spirit great with child.
1928 F. W. S. Browne tr. T. H. van de Velde Ideal Marriage ii. iv. 57 Within this space is the sexual orifice... In maidens this is closed by the hymen.
1965 G. Greene in New Statesman 8 Oct. 518/3 ‘The definition of a maiden in common use’, Doctor Crombie replied,..‘is an unbroken hymen’.

b. A man without experience of sexual intercourse, esp. by reason of abstention; = maid n.1 1b. Freq. in clean maiden. Now regional.

a1225 (▸c1200) Vices & Virtues 131 (MED), Ich ȝew habbe bewedded ane were clane maiden, þat is, to Criste.
▸c1300 Havelok (Laud) (1868) 995 (MED), Of bodi was he mayden clene.
c1400 (▸c1378) Langland Piers Plowman (Laud 581) (1869) B. ix. 173 Maydenes and maydenes macche ȝow togideres.
c1450 Jacob's Well (1900) 277 (MED), He was a munk and priour of his hows, & a clene mayden.
a1470 Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll.) 816 Sire Percyvale..was a parfyte mayden.
1497 J. Alcock Mons Perfeccionis (de Worde) D iij, Ye grete nombre of his apostles were maydens.
1883 Yorks. Weekly Post 8 Sept. 7/6 Maid, maiden, a person of a chaste life..in reference to either sex.

3. A maidservant, a female attendant (cf. maid n.1 3a); † maiden of honour n. Obs. = maid of honour n. 1a. Now regional.

OE Blickling Homilies 159 Forþon þu nu sceawa þines mæg[d]enes eaþmodnesse.
c1325 (▸c1300) Chron. Robert of Gloucester (Calig.) 8965 Hire maidens broȝte hire clene water... Hou miȝte of an quene be a more milsfol dede?
c1400 (▸c1378) Langland Piers Plowman (Laud 581) (1869) B. v. 630 Charite and Chastite ben his chief maydenes.
1434 in F. J. Furnivall Fifty Earliest Eng. Wills (1882) 97 To Aneys hir mayden, a russet kyrtell.
a1450–1509 (▸?a1300) Richard Coer de Lyon (A-version) (1913) 882 The kyngys douȝtyr lay in her bour, Wiþ here maydenys off honour.
1568 (▸a1500) Freiris Berwik 245 in W. T. Ritchie Bannatyne MS (1930) IV. 268 He bad þe madin kindill on þe fyre.
1596 J. Dalrymple tr. J. Leslie Hist. Scotl. (1895) II. 113 He requyres in mariage ane of the Quenes madnes.
1611 Bible (A.V.) Psalms cxxiii. 2 As the eyes of a maiden..[looke] vnto the hand of her mistresse.
1631 J. Weever Anc. Funerall Monuments 446 The Ladies of the Court, and Maydens of Honor.
1863 Trollope Rachel Ray I. i. 16 One little maiden Mrs. Ray employed, and a gardener.
1896 G. Chanter Witch of Withyford 1 Mother she looked after the maidens both fore and after the poor lady's death.

4. An unmarried woman, a spinster, esp. one of mature years; cf. maid n.1 4. Also †to go maiden : to remain single (obs.). See also old maiden n. Now rare.

a1628 J. Carmichael Proverbs (1957) No. 971, It is a sair lyfe, to be lang a maidin and syne a preists wyfe.
a1641 D. Fergusson Sc. Prov. (1924) No. 1565, Ye ar lyk ane old maden ye look aloft.
1764 J. Boswell Jrnl. 8 Sept. in Boswell on Grand Tour (1953) I. 84, I knew the meaning of it, and yet repeated it several times to an old maiden in the company.
1771 T. Smollett Humphry Clinker I. 8 A maiden of forty-five, exceedingly starched, vain, and ridiculous.
1775 Tender Father I. 139 This gentlewoman was an old maiden, and possessed many particularities.
a1802 Cruel Sister xiv, in F. J. Child Eng. & Sc. Pop. Ballads (1882) I. i. 128/2 Your cherry cheeks and your yellow hair Garrd me gang maiden evermair.
1883 Sunday Mercury (N.Y.) 23 Sept. 6/4 ‘I want to sue a man for breach of promise,’ said a maiden of the vintage of 1842, coming into a lawyer's office.

Jeffrey

andrewcriddle · 04-04-2013, 02:40 PM

Hi Jeffrey

You are correct.

I should have said: The use of maiden to mean specifically virgin goes back to Old English, a similar usage is found for several of the cognate Germanic words.

I said

Quote:

maiden originally meant virgin

because I wrongly thought that virgin was the primary meaning of Proto-Germanic *magaþs.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 04-04-2013, 02:47 PM

I don't think this has been previously posted on this thread.

The origin of the idea of ever-virgin Isis may be the Victorian work Ancient Egypt under the Pharaohs volume 1 p 327.

(The text is clearly talking about Neith but a footnote claims that Neith and Isis were originally the same.)

Andrew Criddle

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03-31-2013, 02:36 AM	#71
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	<removed>

03-31-2013, 10:21 AM	#73
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	<edit>

04-04-2013, 10:08 AM	#76
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	"Maiden" is itself partly connected with virginity, as in "maidenhead", i.e. hymen. I suspect "maiden" was a polite way of saying "virgin" in Victorian and Edwardian Egyptian scholarship, and the term has just stuck, and some scholars think it must mean something other than virgin. i.e. storm in a teacup.

04-04-2013, 02:47 PM	#80
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I don't think this has been previously posted on this thread. The origin of the idea of ever-virgin Isis may be the Victorian work Ancient Egypt under the Pharaohs volume 1 p 327. (The text is clearly talking about Neith but a footnote claims that Neith and Isis were originally the same.) Andrew Criddle

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