Gamera

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;3871906]Jesus told Christians to proclaim the gospel. And they have. It's a pretty good plan that's worked quit well.

As to nonChristians not being loving persons, yes, I assert that without the gospel one is doomed to being self-involved and exploiting others.

The people of the OT were downright jerks. Abraham was an infanticide. David an adulterer and murderer. Solomon a rapists. They needed the gospel bad.

In your opinion, what does the Law have to do with the gospel?

Millions. Now how much have you spent of yours helping the poor?

First you're confused. The gospel message isn't confined to a text. Paul was preaching the gospel before any NT scripture was written down. And if all the NT was wiped off the face of the earth, we'd still have the gospel, which is a message.

Second, the gospel message is that God loves us so profoundly he's willing to allow his own son to be killed so that we could see the depth of that love and accept its power to transform us into loving persons who can transcend the selfishness we are mired in.

The essence of the gospel is that only love can save us from our own selfinvolved existence (what Heidegger would call inauthentic existence). The gospel asks what kind of person do you want to be, and answering that determines the conclusion. It is pure existential choice.

aa5874

[QUOTE=Gamera;3886313] If God responds to you when you talk to Him, that I think would be a simply way of establishing his ability to hear.



Isn't this the gospel message?[quote John 3:16, 'For God so love the world that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should perish but have everlasting life'.





But, this is what the Gospel of John 1:1 states, 'In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'.

You appear to have a strange doctrine, maybe this verse applies to you, 1John 4:3,'And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist...'

Johnny Skeptic

Which people are you referring to when you said "we'd still have the gospel...", possibly people who were lucky enough to hear the Gospel message as it was spread entirely by grossly inefficient secular means without any help whatsoever from God? Kosmin and Lachman wrote a well-documented book that is titled 'One Nation Under God'. The authors show that in the U.S., the chief factors that determine religious beliefs are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age. That is hardly a way that a loving God would spread a vital message that mankind greatly needs. In the first century, God was obviously prejudiced against people who did not live in close proximity to Palestine.

If Jesus died on a cross and rose from the dead, it most certainly was not because he loved mankind. It is impossible to love all of the people in the world and allow hundreds of millions of people to die without knowing about your specific existence and will.

Millions of skeptics are most certainly not self-involved. Some skeptic police officers are willing to risk their lives to save your life. That is not an example of self-involvement. During early American history, some of the first opponents of slavery were skeptics. That is not an example of self-involvement. Many skeptics have joined the peace corps. That is not an example of self-involvement. Many people are devout and faithful followers of other religions, and a large percentage of them are not self-involved. Those people are theists. They believe that love comes from their Gods, and that it is their duty, and often their joy, to spread that love to everyone in the world. That is not an example of self-involvement.

Please describe for us the differences between a loving Christian, a loving Buddhist, and a loving agnostic.

Do you believe that there are any eternal penalties for refusing to become a Christian?

Many skeptics believe that love must be DEMONSTRATED, not merely DECLARED. Surely part of love is meeting peoples' TANGIBLE needs, not just their SPIRITUAL/EMOTIONAL needs. If people do not have enough food eat, and starve to death, they most certainly are not able to enjoy and share God's love with other people. James 2:14-22 say "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

Lest you attempt to discount what James said because he was not one of the Gospel writers, 2 Timothy 3:16 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”.

Matthew 15:32-38 say “Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way. And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude? And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes. And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground. And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full. And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.”

God obviously was not interested in directly preventing the U.S. Civil War, a war where Christian killed Christian, and brother killed brother. A God who is not willing to keep his own church in order is not worthy of being admired.

Based upon God’s performance during human history, it is not likely that the preceding Scriptures are true.

Many Christian missionary efforts overseas involve not only telling people about the Gospel message, but also providing them with food, medical needs, and education. Do you object to providing people with food, medical needs, and education? If not, would you object if God directly provided people with food, medical needs, and education? Do you believe that God directly provided manna for the Jews after they left Egypt?

How vital is sharing the Gospel message with people? Obviously, not very vital to God or he would not ask you to tell people about it and refuse to tell people about it himself.

I am an agnostic. I do not discount the possibility that an intelligent being created the universe, and gave humans the capacity to love other people. I am not self-involved. I do not take any credit for whatever abilities I have. I have given lots of money away to needy people, some of whom I have never met.

If God wants people to know that he exists, and wants people to know what he wants them to do, he could not possibly have anything whatsoever to lose by appearing to everyone in the world, tangibly, in person. The writings and verbal messages of human proxies who presume to speak for a particular God can rightly be questioned. Some writers of religious books and verbal messages told lies, and others were guilty of innocent but inaccurate revelation.

Thousands of years before Christ, King Hammurabi gave the world Hammurabi's code, a set of rules that was remarkable for its time. Centuries before Christ, Buddha gave the world a version of the Golden Rule. Centuries before Christ, the Greeks gave the world a version of democracy. During the time of Jesus, a time when the vast majority of Christians endorsed slavery, and were telling people about God's supposed "love", some Sophists and Stoics opposed slavery. How do you suppose that those Sophists and Stoics were more enlightened than most Christians were?

Do you believe that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments? How about God's rules in Exodus and Leviticus? Do you believe that those rules came from God? The Gospels mention Moses 37 times.

You said that you have given away millions of dollars, but I am not impressed based upon what Jesus said about accumulating wealth. The best judge of what you have given away is what you have left. How much money do you have left? I assume that you have an expensive home, an expensive car, and that you are a millionaire. Is that correct?

Doug Shaver

Right. I disagree with you, and that proves I have not contemplated the issue.

Unproblematic? Ha. There you go again, abitrarily redefining words to suit your rhetorical purposes.

Yeah, I guess that's pretty obvious.

Gibberish.

Johnny Skeptic

Hundreds of millions of people died without having heard the Gospel message, courtesy of God. Even today, although the Gospel message is preached in every country in the world, some people have not heard it, courtesy of God. Babies who are aborted, or who die when they are only a few weeks or a few years old, die without having heard the Gospel message.

The most important message in the Bible is definitely the NEXT life, not THIS life. The following Scriptures are from the KJV unless otherwise noted:

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24: 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Corinthians 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. (NIV)

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

http://wbsa.logos.com/article.asp?id=3589

The Physical Heavens:

Gen. 1:1 Job 37:18; Psa. 33:6; 136:5; Jer. 10:12.
Psa. 19:1
Psa. 50:6
Psa. 68:33
Psa. 89:29
Psa. 97:6
Psa. 103:11
Psa. 113:4
Psa. 115:16
Jer. 31:37
Ezek. 1:1
Matt. 24:29,30
Acts 2:19,20 See Sub-topics, below. Physical Heavens, Creation of:
Gen. 1:1
Gen. 2:1
1 Chr. 16:26
2 Chr. 2:12
Neh. 9:6
Job 9:8
Psa. 8:3
Psa. 19:1
Psa. 33:6,9
Psa. 148:4-6
Prov. 8:27
Isa. 37:16
Isa. 40:22
Isa. 42:5 Isa. 45:18.
Isa. 45:12
Jer. 10:12
Jer. 32:17
Jer. 51:15
Acts 4:24 Acts 14:15.
Heb. 1:10
Rev. 10:6
Rev. 14:7 See Heavens, New. See Creation; God, Creator. Physical Heavens, Destruction of:
Job 14:12
Psa. 102:25,26
Isa. 34:4
Isa. 51:6
Matt. 5:18
Matt. 24:35
Heb. 1:10-12
2 Pet. 3:10,12
Rev. 6:12-14
Rev. 20:11
Rev. 21:1,4

Johnny: Gamera, do you believe in life after death or not?

Gamera

Like I say, you seem incapable of distinguishing the interpretation of a text and some notion of pristine history. History is a text. Get used to it.

Gamera

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;3886582]

Easy. Loving buddhist show sympathy as a step toward enlightenment. The action itself is for their benefit, not the recipient. The opposite is true with Christianity, where the holy spirit re-creates us as loving persons. We have nothing to gain by being loving, not even enlightenment; the purpose is to be loving.

Yes, the rejection of the gospel is the rejection of the choice to become a loving person, and hence the condemnation of being an unloving inauthentic person.

The NT teaches over and over again that those who truly accept the gospel will show it through good works. Hence Paul's beautiful statement, "The only thing that counts if faith expressing itself through love."

Yep, all scripture, even the OT is good for edification. But only the gospel saves.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

.

People have free will. Without that existence has no meaning. Deal with it.

God doesn't make your moral decisions. You do.

Why would I object to feeding the poor, and what do I care if the Jews got manna or not?

You're confused. We show love through our relationship to others or not at all. God can't show love for us.

You are clearly self involved.

I've explained this about 10 times, so I have to assume you're asking in bad faith.

Your premise that Christians endorsed slavery is of course wrong.

Who knows. I have the gospel and don't really care about ancient laws that never saved anybody from anything.

Yep, that's why you have to give it away. Nope, I drive a 1988 Sazuki. You're attempts to personally attack me are interesting and amusing , but don't clarify the texts in question at all.

Gamera

[QUOTE=aa5874;3886412][QUOTE=Gamera;3886313]

I'm not aware of any such response and don't require it to accept the gospel.

Yes, that 's the gospel. And we are invited to determine what it means. It's a text. You quoted a text. Jesus isn't here right now, so all we have is a text.

Sorry. I don't see your point. The gospel is the gospel. It's pretty simple. Then there are all kinds of other discussions in the Christian scriptures about all kinds of topics, which would have been relevant to 1st century Christians trying to apply this new faith. Many of the discussions are at cross purposes, as any text will be with complex issues.

aa5874

John 3:16 'For God so love the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, will not perish but have everlasting life'.

An unknown man dies and that is the Gospel! If you were to discard your text, your Gospel, burn them, you have absolutely nothing.

Burn every known book and still the human being will survive without the absurd belief of the Gospels, just like the indigenous Indians of North and South America, the people of Africa, Asia and Australasia.

Your Gospel, your text, your main character cannot be located in history.

Johnny Skeptic

Saves from what? Many non-Christians are loving, kind, considerate people. Some skeptic police officers would be willing to risk their lives in order to save your life. Those examples refute your absurd claim that non-Christians are self-involved. Millions of religious people who are not Christians are not self-involved, and many of them have given their lives for their beliefs.

Do you believe that there is life after death?

History has clearly shown that God is not really that interested in letting people know about the Gospel message. He allowed hundreds of millions of people to die without having heard the Gospel message. Now I know that you do not have any problems at all with that, but billions of people rightly do. What gives God the right to deliberately withhold the very same message from people that he told the disciples to tell the world about, and that you are trying to tell the world about?

Good works is much more than just telling pepole that you love them, and the same goes for God. James 2:14-22 say "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"[/quote]

Do you get it now, Gamera? James said “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” You are vain, and your faith is dead.

Galations 6:10 says “As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.” Surely that verse means much more than merely saying “I love you.” Love must be tangibly demonstrated, not merely declared. As James said, “If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?” Many Christian missionaries show their love for people not merely by telling people that God loves them, and that they love them, but by providing people with food, medical treatment, and education.

Ok, if God were to show up in person and say to me “I love you”, what should I conclude that that means? What spiritual and tangible benefits should I expect to derive from God’s statement? If God said that to me, I would tell him “I was under the assumption that love must be DEMONSTRATED, not merely DECLARED. Did you not provide food for the first humans? If so, why, and why do you allow people to starve to death today?”

Is it your position that Hurricane Katrina was an example of God’s love?