Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Potoooooooo · 04-07-2009, 02:34 PM

http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/30034168/
Has anyone read this yet? If so what do you think?

rlogan · 04-07-2009, 02:44 PM

I have some books for you to read and report back to me on.

show_no_mercy · 04-07-2009, 03:10 PM

Why was that in the science section of MSNBC?

Also, it didn't look like she dispelled any misconceptions at all. As a matter of fact, it looks like she promoted them.

Potoooooooo · 04-07-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Why was that in the science section of MSNBC?

Also, it didn't look like she dispelled any misconceptions at all. As a matter of fact, it looks like she promoted them.

Which in specific? I got this from another discussion board where a debate already rages. That is why I though I would ask here where I know I can get some knowledgeable responses.

Toto · 04-07-2009, 03:58 PM

Rachel Havrelock

Quote:

is a scholar of the Hebrew Bible and its interpretation. She received a BA with honors in Hebrew and English Literature from the University of California, Santa Cruz and then co-authored a book, Women on the Biblical Road: Ruth, Naomi and the Female Journey (University Press of America, 1996), with her BA advisor, Dr. Mishael Caspi. Rachel began her graduate work at Tel Aviv and Bir Zeit Universities, continuing and completing it in the Joint Doctoral Program in Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley and the Graduate Theological Union. She was a visiting assistant professor in the Religion Department at Swarthmore College before joining the UIC faculty in 2003.

. . .

She has written and directed hip-hop plays, From Tel Aviv to Ramallah and Soundtrack City, that have toured extensively and run in Chicago, New York and San Francisco.

From here

Quote:

Her areas of expertise include the Bible as literature, folklore, myth, gender and sexuality in western religion, comparative studies of Judaism and Islam and cultural dimensions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I'm not sure how this qualifies her as an expert on the Historical Jesus, but she's probably taught some comparative religion classes.

In the interview at the link in the OP she relies on the good ol' criterion of embarassment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel Havrelock

Why should a son of God have to be baptized, since he should have been born without sin? It appears that John the Baptist was involved in creating another movement at around the same time as Jesus.

and Josephus:

Quote:

DN: Is there any direct evidence for Jesus' existence outside of the Bible?

RH: Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, wrote of Jesus in the Greek version of the "Antiquities of the Jews." He described Jesus as a "wise man" and a "doer of wonderful works." The fact that Josephus referenced Jesus reveals that stories about Jesus were already gaining momentum.

It sounds like Haverlock is a nice person, a religious liberal who believes in equality and tolerance and uplifting the downtrodden. It doesn't sound like she has anything new or interesting to contribute to the question of whether there was a historical Jesus.

What is the debate about? There is nothing here especially controversial. The "myths" about the historical Jesus that she "dispells" are the myths among religiously illiterate Americans

ApostateAbe · 04-07-2009, 04:40 PM

Rachel Havrelock is yet another scholar who recreates Jesus in the scholar's own image. Havrelock thinks Jesus was some sort of socialist and feminist. What a coincidence--Havrelock is also a socialist and a feminist.

"The core of Jesus' message was directed to the economically downtrodden, the poor farmers, laborers and others who had little power in their own lives. Jesus presented a radical social proposition that meant society could be reconfigured to allow for less inequity and more sharing."

Making assertions is not busting myths. You bust myths with evidence. In this case, she needs evidence that Jesus had anything to do with egalitarianism.

Elijah · 04-07-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Rachel Havrelock is yet another scholar who recreates Jesus in the scholar's own image. Havrelock thinks Jesus was some sort of socialist and feminist. What a coincidence--Havrelock is also a socialist and a feminist.

"The core of Jesus' message was directed to the economically downtrodden, the poor farmers, laborers and others who had little power in their own lives. Jesus presented a radical social proposition that meant society could be reconfigured to allow for less inequity and more sharing."

Making assertions is not busting myths. You bust myths with evidence. In this case, she needs evidence that Jesus had anything to do with egalitarianism.

I'm a fan of the feminist socialist version of Jesus and don't see the reason to believe otherwise. He's serving the people and has women following him and doing the actual anointing for the Christ (the anointed). He also makes a prophecy of a female authority figure rising up and judging this adulterous nation. A savior of the world isn't just going to try and save half the population and not the half that needs the most help.

I agree that people have a tendency of seeing themselves in Jesus and I may be another case but I haven't heard any good argument for the sexist fascist version of Jesus.

But I do wonder what the "seeing yourself" says about people who just see a myth instead of a person. Probably says nothing about the person other then they are attracted to anti theist propaganda, but who knows.

Toto · 04-07-2009, 05:35 PM

What female authority figure would that be?

Elijah · 04-07-2009, 05:38 PM

The Queen of the South; Luke 11:31 Mathew 12:42

IamJoseph · 04-07-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Rachel Havrelock

Quote:

is a scholar of the Hebrew Bible and its interpretation. She received a BA with honors in Hebrew and English Literature from the University of California, Santa Cruz and then co-authored a book, Women on the Biblical Road: Ruth, Naomi and the Female Journey (University Press of America, 1996), with her BA advisor, Dr. Mishael Caspi. Rachel began her graduate work at Tel Aviv and Bir Zeit Universities, continuing and completing it in the Joint Doctoral Program in Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley and the Graduate Theological Union. She was a visiting assistant professor in the Religion Department at Swarthmore College before joining the UIC faculty in 2003.

. . .

She has written and directed hip-hop plays, From Tel Aviv to Ramallah and Soundtrack City, that have toured extensively and run in Chicago, New York and San Francisco.

From here

I'm not sure how this qualifies her as an expert on the Historical Jesus, but she's probably taught some comparative religion classes.

In the interview at the link in the OP she relies on the good ol' criterion of embarassment.

and Josephus:

Quote:

DN: Is there any direct evidence for Jesus' existence outside of the Bible?

RH: Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, wrote of Jesus in the Greek version of the "Antiquities of the Jews." He described Jesus as a "wise man" and a "doer of wonderful works." The fact that Josephus referenced Jesus reveals that stories about Jesus were already gaining momentum.

It sounds like Haverlock is a nice person, a religious liberal who believes in equality and tolerance and uplifting the downtrodden. It doesn't sound like she has anything new or interesting to contribute to the question of whether there was a historical Jesus.

What is the debate about? There is nothing here especially controversial. The "myths" about the historical Jesus that she "dispells" are the myths among religiously illiterate Americans

Unfortunately, the passage in Josephus, the closest contemporary writings of Jesus - and by what is generally regarded one of the most dependable historical writings - is seen as a cut and paste job even by a host of christian scholars. It is a reason to be shocked that a contemporary manuscript of Josephus is not seen - these would have been fastediously destroyed by the emerging church - because these archives would have totally contradicted the Gospels, and the church continued Rome's heresy decrees for many centuries, eventually murdering even more people than did non-chrstian Rome.

This becomes authentic when one considers Josephus wrote in two languages [Hebrew, then Greek], none of which exists, even as the scrolls existed from the burning furnance of the temple which once housed them - and all we have is a latin version of Josephus, dated centuries after its space-time: latin was the European writing - never Jewish, and Josephus was a Jew. The biggest give away is that Josephus is describing a war which cost over a million lives which culminated in a Holocaust defending against Rome's grotesque decree - and this holocaust is totally ignored by the Latin Gospels! That's like the NYT not mentioning 9/11 ever.

It just does not add up with the pursuit of truth. :constern01:

04-07-2009, 02:34 PM	#1
Potoooooooo Contributor Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: USA Posts: 13,541	Who was the historical Jesus? Biblical scholar Rachel Havrelock weighs in http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/30034168/ Has anyone read this yet? If so what do you think?

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04-07-2009, 02:44 PM	#2
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	I have some books for you to read and report back to me on.

04-07-2009, 03:10 PM	#3
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Why was that in the science section of MSNBC? Also, it didn't look like she dispelled any misconceptions at all. As a matter of fact, it looks like she promoted them.

04-07-2009, 04:40 PM	#6
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Rachel Havrelock is yet another scholar who recreates Jesus in the scholar's own image. Havrelock thinks Jesus was some sort of socialist and feminist. What a coincidence--Havrelock is also a socialist and a feminist. "The core of Jesus' message was directed to the economically downtrodden, the poor farmers, laborers and others who had little power in their own lives. Jesus presented a radical social proposition that meant society could be reconfigured to allow for less inequity and more sharing." Making assertions is not busting myths. You bust myths with evidence. In this case, she needs evidence that Jesus had anything to do with egalitarianism.

04-07-2009, 05:35 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What female authority figure would that be?

04-07-2009, 05:38 PM	#9
Elijah Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MidWest Posts: 1,894	The Queen of the South; Luke 11:31 Mathew 12:42

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