outhouse

You need to learn how to refute. because what you pull off doesnt cut it.


asking questions is not refuting a single thing I said.



Now try and refute the post's above.



disregarding in not a refutation

aa5874

Please IDENTIFY yourself. You say that there are people who IGNORANT "to the scientific methods of historians, and modern scholarships".

You need to show that you are NOT one of those people.

Please state the Scientific methods used by historians to put forward the idea that Jesus of Nazareth did exist and was baptized by John and crucified under Pilate.

Are you ignorant of the WRITTEN statements about Myth Jesus in Matthew 1.18-20, Luke 1.26-35, Mark 6.49-48, John 1, Acts 1.9, and Galatians 1??

I do not subscribe to IGNORANCE from Scholars when they have ZERO credible evidence for an HJ.

outhouse

you dont ask the questions.

you try and refute the one's already asked.

LegionOnomaMoi

If I pass go, can I collect $200? As long as we're leaving the realm of historiography and entering into a puzzle game where you define the rules, I seems only fair that you throw in some incentives to play.

Yes, but the jury (or judge for a bench trial) is REQUIRED to interpret it. They INFER from the evidence presented to them and determine (at least in principle) whether or not they burden of proof (which changes depending on trial type) has been met. If a witness gives a statement, the jury is by no means required to either accept it entirely or reject it utterly. So, for example, if a witness who is a career criminal and has a history of lying gives a particular account of a bank robbery gone wrong (several guards were killed) the criminal took part in, the jury can absolutely infer that this witness is probably going to downplay his/her own role, and may disregard much or most of the witnesses testimony. But if several such witnesses all give testimony and all are equally suspect but agree on particular points (e.g., who actually shot the guards) the jury can absolutely disregard most of the testimony except those parts which (for various reasons, such as agreement among witnesses) they find likely.

The analogy, however, can only be pushed so far. The legal system is not designed first and foremost to get the truth. That's why illegally obtained evidence which would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that individual X is guilty of crime Y will be thrown out. The system is designed in favor of the guilty (again, in principle), under the assumption that it is better for guilty people to go free than put innocent people in prison.

Historians, however, DO first and foremost seek to determine what most likely happened given all available evidence. If some evidence is subpar, then it can be treated as such, while in a court that evidence may be thrown out lest a guilty person go to prison.

Inference doesn't involve changing the statements, nor is it merely imagination.

What "credible sources" from antiquity?

outhouse

LOL exactly


if they discredit HJ in any way shape or form they are now credible and held valid.

if they help prove a HJ they are all fake, forgeries and mythology.

Duvduv

I am intrigued by the fact that apparently not a single ancient rabbinical source all the way up to the 5th century mentions that anyone ever encountered a community that claimed to believe in a Jewish messiah figure in one or another permutation.

The Jerusalem Talmud was completed sometime at the end of the 4th century and the Babylonian Talmud by the end of the 5th century. I am not of course referring to either Yeshu Pandera or to Yaakov of Sachna, but to bona fide communities or their members.

One would think that some mention would be made of it. I don't think there is even a tradition of anything having been censored as were other parts dealing with Yeshu.

aa5874

The keyword is 'EVIDENCE'. The jury can accept or reject the evidence but they cannot INVENT their own evidence.

We have the Jesus stories in the Existing Codices and Jesus is described as Non-human, a Water Walker, a Transfigurer, a Child of a Ghost, God the Creator, that resurrected and ascended.

NT Jesus was a MYTH.

If NT Jesus is rejected another Jesus cannot be re-constructed WITHOUT any Evidence.

That is PRECISELY why there is a 250 year old ONGOING Quest for HJ. The Jesus of Faith, Myth Jesus is NT Jesus.

NO-one has presented any credible evidence that Jesus was just a man.


What system is designed for the Truth??? Religion???

Are you aware that some so-called Historians may worship Jesus and are trying to obey the supposed words of Jesus???

A person who worships Jesus could NOT be a juror in trial to determine the veracity of the Jesus character.

Well, you still have NOT stated what IS an Inference.


You appear to be confused. You don't understand what "credible" means???

aa5874

I am not going to let you off the hook.

You stated, " its amazing how ignorant people are to the scientific methods of historians, and modern scholarships".

Please state the Scientific methods used by historians to put forward the idea that Jesus of Nazareth did exist and was baptized by John and crucified under Pilate.

You may very well be ignorant of the fact that even Ehrman claimed the Gospels and the sources for the Gospels are NOT historically reliable.

mountainman

Spera cites much the same evidence as Graydon Synder, and defers to the "pioneering Papal archaeologist" de Rossi in the 19th century, a known forger of "Holy Relics".



I'd like to see a picture of this. It sounds just like "The Healing of the Paralytic" on the wall of the Dura-Europos-Yale "house-church". Only in this case the Matthew-Inspired artist worked in a pagan mausoleum. This is Monty Python material.




Synder deals with the anchors and fish. That these may be associated with some "certainly Christian" presence is pie-in-the-sky material. I have asked for you to cite the evidence of your choice to substantiate the claim that there were any christians before the "Peace of Constantine".

You provided Spera. The evidence cited by Spera is largely summarized in Snyder. I have dealt with Snyder's evidence. Spera seems to be convinced that the saints and martyrs are identifiable. I disagree.

I repeat, I have read quite a number of journal articles (and not just Biblical Journals) in an effort to index one by one the citations to evidence items claimed to substantiate the existence of the christian cult prior to the 4th century.

030-324 CE: Where is the archeological evidence for pre-Nicene christianity?

mountainman

Have you read Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian (Translated by Alexander Walker. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 8. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe.)

Here the Jews write a book of complaints against the new and strange nation of Christians and give it to the Emperor Domitian who flies into a rage and perecutes the new and strange nation of Christians.

Where does this strange non canonical story fit in to the jigsaw puzzle of history?