Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ulrich · 02-02-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

There is no serious scholarly contention that the Biblical Moses was a real person. There is some debate as to whether he was partially derived from a real historical figure (like the Egyptian Pharaoh, Ahmose, e.g.) but that's it. There was no Exodus, after all, so no place for a Moses.

Ahmose in Greek is Amosis, which could have easily been translitereated to Moses in Hebrew. Ahmose is known for driving the Hyksos from Egypt, an event that some speculate as the source for the Exodus myth.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-02-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulrich

Ahmose in Greek is Amosis, which could have easily been translitereated to Moses in Hebrew. Ahmose is known for driving the Hyksos from Egypt, an event that some speculate as the source for the Exodus myth.

Exactly.

I think it's about the most plausible theory I've heard, although I think it may have become infused with some kind of Sinai Volcano God legend as well.

Clivedurdle · 02-02-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Exactly.
Sinai Volcano God legend as well.

Thor?

It wasn't the Vikings who helped build the pyramids and got thrown out was it?

Sensei Meela · 02-02-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulrich

Ahmose in Greek is Amosis, which could have easily been translitereated to Moses in Hebrew.

Isn't the Hebrew name for Moses "Moshe," however?

funinspace · 02-02-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

Isn't the Hebrew name for Moses "Moshe," however?

That's my understanding...and it happens to fit much better into Egyptian (than mangled Hebrew for the claim of "to draw out") with what I understand to mean along the lines of "son of".

Trigger · 02-03-2005, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

There is no serious scholarly contention that the Biblical Moses was a real person. There is some debate as to whether he was partially derived from a real historical figure (like the Egyptian Pharaoh, Ahmose, e.g.) but that's it. There was no Exodus, after all, so no place for a Moses.

Or any man named Moses to write the books of the Bible attributed to him.

Ulrich · 02-03-2005, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

That's my understanding...and it happens to fit much better into Egyptian (than mangled Hebrew for the claim of "to draw out") with what I understand to mean along the lines of "son of".

The Egyptian word minios means "to take out" (draw out works as well), and is traditionally held as the equivalent of Moshe or Moses, whereas Amohse means "the Moon is Born". Of course I am not a linguist, so I would be curious to know if the word 'moshe' was in use in the Hebrew language prior to the Exodus myth, or did this word gain its meaning from the story of Moses? If the latter is the situation, then of course Ahmose could have been transliterated into Hebrew as Moshe before later coming to mean "to take out" due to the legend of Moses.

Anyone more knowledgeable have any thoughts on this?

Jack the Bodiless · 02-03-2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

The Egyptian word minios means "to take out" (draw out works as well), and is traditionally held as the equivalent of Moshe or Moses, whereas Amohse means "the Moon is Born".

...Interesting. And Passover is a lunar festival (first full Moon after the Vernal Equinox IIRC). Coincidence?

funinspace · 02-03-2005, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulrich

The Egyptian word minios means "to take out" (draw out works as well), and is traditionally held as the equivalent of Moshe or Moses, whereas Amohse means "the Moon is Born". Of course I am not a linguist, so I would be curious to know if the word 'moshe' was in use in the Hebrew language prior to the Exodus myth, or did this word gain its meaning from the story of Moses? If the latter is the situation, then of course Ahmose could have been transliterated into Hebrew as Moshe before later coming to mean "to take out" due to the legend of Moses.

Anyone more knowledgeable have any thoughts on this?

I don't think much of anything can be said about the Hebrew language from this time frame. There are zero records about the Hebrews/Israelite's from the times claimed around Moshe. One has to wait about 500 years to get any kind of records. I'm certainly not a liguist, but I have seen this in several good books on the Hebrew canon. Here is a web site reference that says about the same thing:

http://opie.usu.edu/%7EFATH6/Moses.htm

Quote:

His Hebrew name was Moshe, the true meaning of which is now unknown. Some relate the name to the Hebrew word mashah, which means "drawn out" a reference to the story of his having been drawn out of the water where his mother had placed him in a reed basket to save him from the death that had been decreed by the Pharaoh against the firstborn of all of the children of Israel in Egypt (Exodus 2:10). One Jewish source says that the name he was given by by the daughter of the Pharaoh was Miniot, which meant "taken out" in Egyptian, and that Moshe was a translation of this Egyptian name into Hebrew. Some have seen in this story a parallel with the story of Sargon of Assyria who was also said to have been drawn from the water as an infant:

Sargon, strong king, king of Agade, am I. My mother was a high priestess, my father I do not know. My paternal kin inhabit the mountain region. My city (of birth) is Azupiranu, which lies on the bank of the Euphrates. My mother, a high priestess, conceived me, in secret she bore me. She placed me in a reed basket, with bitumen she caulked my hatch. She abandoned me to the river from which I could not escape. The river carried me along: to Aqqi, the water drawer, it brought me. Aqqi, the water drawer, when immersing his bucket lifted me up. Aqqi, the water drawer, raised me as his adopted son. Aqqi, the water drawer, set me to his garden work. During my garden work, Istar loved me (so that) 55 years I ruled as king. (Lewis, 1978)
.
.
Alternatively, some authorities have pointed to the fact that Exodus 2:10 says that Pharaoh's daughter "made him her son," as a possible reference to another source for his name. During the eighteenth dynasy of Egypt, the suffix -mose was a common element in names and meant "son of." This Egyptian naming convention is illustrated in names from the period such as Thut-mose ("son of Toth") and Ra-moses ("son of Ra"). According to this view, the name Moshe would simply be a transliteration into Hebrew of a longer Egyptian name that ended in -mose.

Notsri · 02-03-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The Romans did not require anyoine to his hometown to register when they did impose a census.

"Gaius Vibius Maximus, Prefect of Egypt [ca. AD 104], says: 'The census by household having begun, it is necessary to notify all who for any reason whatsoever are outside their districts to return to their own homes, that they may accomplish the customary dispensation of enrollment and continue steadfastly in the husbandry that belongs to them. Knowing, however, that some of the people from the countryside are required by our city, I desire all those who think they have a satisfactory reason for remaining here to register themselves before . . . Festus, the Calvary Commander, whom I have appointed for this purpose, from whom those who have shown their presence to be necessary shall receive signed permits in accordance with this edict up to the 30th of the present month E.... '"

- Greek papyrus no. 904, British Museum

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