Lord Emsworth

There's merely one http:// in the link too many. Try this:

http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freeb...s/2206_47e.htm

spin

What does one think of a book which presupposes the phantom Neronian persecution?


spin

GakuseiDon

I've always wondered about that. Tacitus certainly claims that there was a persecution of Christians by Nero. Placing large numbers of Christians in Rome around 60 CE is interesting.

Are you saying that this is in doubt, or even disproven? What is the current opinion on this?

Amlodhi

Hello GakuseiDon,

I also would be interested in further information regarding this. I don't know how "large" the numbers were, but it is my understanding that Nero's persecution was basically confined to the city of Rome. Tacitus seems to think that Nero took Rome's burning as an opportunity to rid the city of what he considered to be disgusting superstitious practices.

The persecutions under Domitian, OTOH, seem to have been legislated and more widespread. Although, the available references seem to indicate that they weren't as all-encompassing and brutal as some websites would have us believe.

Again, if you or anyone else has further information regarding this issue I would be most interested to hear it.


Amlodhi

Toto

The whole context of this book is creepy.

Before Jerusalem Fell is published by the Institute for Christian Economics, a/k/a Christian Reconstructionists. The preface is by Gary North, who predicted that the Y2K computer bug would bring down Western Civilization, per God's plan, and signal the failure of secular humanism and a return to Biblical law, including stoning disobedient teenagers and adulterers.

From his preface:

Nevertheless, the evidence in this book should be evaluated, if someone would be so kind as to point it out.

Vorkosigan

The whole website appears to run by North.

http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/

"The 90-plus free books and 800-plus free newsletters on this site introduce Christians to the first principles of building a Bible-based Christian worldview, also called a Christian world-and-life view. A Bible-based Christian worldview is the first step in building a permanently free society.

There is no neutrality. Christians must begin with the Bible in education, not with the assumption of the autonomy of their own minds.

The books and resources on this site are ideal for Christian education, especially a home school curriculum. Most of them can be used in an advanced Christian student's high school curriculum. Because these educational resources are free, Christian home school parents can save money on their high school curriculum costs. (Saving money is an important goal.) "

Yeesh....

judge

Hi Amlodhi, I have not read the book but had seen it referred to in one or two long and feisty debates online between christians of differing views.
I had a quick look at it last night and again tonight from what I can see the chapter on "internal evidence" does not address your question on the temple.
I got the 65-66 C.E. dating from the conclusion.

BTW I am mreally enjoying Hamlets Mill, will get back with some questions soon.

judge

Hi Toto, do you have an online reference for this?
Don't worry as someone who has read some of Gary Norths books I can asure you this would be true, but I would love an online reference if you know of one to use on another forum.

spin

Gak, I have argued in other threads that Tacitus's story about a Neronian persecution wasn't written by Tacitus and I'd add that a Suetonian brief reference was also an addition which wasn't done by the same people as the Tacitus job, otherwise they might have agreed about the context. Current opinion is probably why should we doubt it? An earlier thread on Tacitus supplies my doubts. I'm too lazy to find it at the moment. Sorry. But it works as a large addendum to the section it is found in; it is clearly not Tacitus in tone; while appearing anti-xian, it also supplies a condensed witness to xianity as well as stuff of interest to later xians regarding martyrdom.


spin

Vorkosigan

spin, are you referring to this discussion of Tacitus by Doughty?

"One should finally recognize that, as Keresztes correctly observes, the portrayal of Christians being persecuted here suffers from the same ambiguities and difficulties as the crucifixion of Jesus in the Gospels. To be executed in such a way, the Christians would have been brought to trial before a Roman magistrate, where witnesses would be heard and charges evaluated. But as Keresztes observes, "Just as we still do not know the basis of Pilate's condemnation of Christ, we do not know the basis for the condemnation of Tacitus' Christians (ANRW 2.23.1, 253). Keresztes argues that we have to do here an cognito extra ordinem, and that in such cases the "quite abstract idea of odium, 'hatred,' without concrete proof of crimes" was probably sufficient to warrant condemnation to death. But this is unlikely. Keresztes simply assumes what must have been the case in order to make sense of what the Gospels and Tacitus relate when these sources are read uncritically. The entire story makes better sense, however, if Tacitus' original account related the execution of criminals who had already been convicted of serious crimes."