Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Avery · 05-02-2007, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobar

I do want to urge you to consider your theistic longings as being possibly an artifact of your brain chemistry being out of balance. See that work by Campbell, and also investigate temporal lobe epilepsy. There are neurological pathologies which mimic religious experiences. (Indeed, an argument can be made that all such experiences are the result of such pathologies.) .... I hope, for your own happiness and well-being, that you seek the advice of a specialist in psychoneurology

When I was beginning to understand that God is real I also sought out literature and theories that would psychologically rationalize away the reality of God by subsuming God underneath a psyche theory. At the time the book I embraced was "The Mind Possessed" which tries to compare certain Biblical experiences with shell-shock in the war or voodoo trance states. (This is from long ago memory).

Fortunately the reality of God was far, far greater than the superficial attempts to shadowize God as a psychobabble mirage. Those books are long gone from my shelf but I remember with a

my piddling attempt to find a substitute mimic alternative construction to replace the reality of the God of the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobar

and that you are willing to try out their recommendations for getting your brain and nervous system in balance...It's no shame to need to take chemical supplements to improve your mental health; I speak from experience, since I have to take a daily dose of Dilantin to avoid epileptic seizures.

If in fact epileptic seizures are physiological rather than spiritual then this (like asthma balancing or defense through herbs or drugs) is so far removed from the questions at hand that we should be astounded. Such drugging, (the spiritual rather than the physiological) sounds much more like a "Brave New World" drug-induced euphoria meant to place man's mind on a pedestal above God. Extremely dangerous.

This suggestion is one sorcery, pharmacopeia, of the present day. Frequently those who snap in murderous rage have been 'treated' in such benevolent drug fashion. This suggestion can be placed in the dustbin.

(For those who have been cajoled and pressured into various anti-depressants and other mind-altering drugs my advice and sharing would be much more personal and measured. How to be removed from that world of drug manipulation fully and with clarity and pizazz and personal accountability and direction becomes the key issue.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobar

As I said in your other thread, I feel your quest (for happiness, truth, understanding) would be more profitably pursued pharmaceutically, rather than theologically.

This suggestion is no better in its modern institutionalized psychobabble government and insurance $ garb than it was in the days of Tim Leary and Richard Alpert. In fact it is far more dangerous, on the societal level, and likely even the personal health level. (Many scarred in those days did recover.)

Peter, I wish you good tidings on your spiritual understandings and quest.

I realize that this post is responding a bit off-topic to what you shared to start on the thread, however I was a bit surprised and concerned to see the suggestions here and felt counterpoint was needed.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

FatherMithras · 05-02-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

When I was beginning to understand that God is real I also sought out literature and theories that would psychologically rationalize away the reality of God by subsuming God underneath a psyche theory. At the time the book I embraced was "The Mind Possessed" which tries to compare certain Biblical experiences with shell-shock in the war or voodoo trance states. (This is from long ago memory).

Fortunately the reality of God was far, far greater than the superficial attempts to shadowize God as a psychobabble mirage. Those books are long gone from my shelf but I remember with a my piddling attempt to find a substitute mimic alternative construction to replace the reality of the God of the Bible.

IE

I ignored what I read and chose to believe exactly as the practitioners of Voodoo do. I chose to believe that my religious experiences were infallible.

Quote:

(For those who have been cajoled and pressured into various anti-depressants and other mind-altering drugs my advice and sharing would be much more personal and measured. How to be removed from that world of drug manipulation fully and with clarity and pizazz and personal accountability and direction becomes the key issue.)

Total bullshit. And dangerous bullshit I might add. There are a significant number of cases when, for no reason at all other than chemistry in the brain, people are going to suffer depression or some other psychological disorder. Making the above claim is not only ignorant, it's potentially hazardous.

Quote:

This suggestion is no better in its modern institutionalized psychobabble government and insurance $ garb than it was in the days of Tim Leary and Richard Alpert. In fact it is far more dangerous, on the societal level, and likely even the personal health level. (Many scarred in those days did recover.)

Peter, I wish you good tidings on your spiritual understandings and quest.

I realize that this post is responding a bit off-topic to what you shared to start on the thread, however I was a bit surprised and concerned to see the suggestions here and felt counterpoint was needed.

While I agree with you on peter Kirby, it does not make you nonsensical rantings against mental health valid. I agree not all religious people need psychological help, and that most probably don't, some do. The reason it was suggested, hover, is because it was implied that Peter's "Manic" episode could have resulted in his conversion. These kind of things DO happen.

I don't know, or care honestly.

Jobar · 05-02-2007, 05:56 AM

Praxeus, when you are able to demonstrate to us precisely how your god is distinguishable from a malfunction within your own mind, then we can talk. Until such time, all the evidence suggests that what you think is external to you is in fact internal, and that god is a figment of your imagination.

If you care to start a thread in a more appropriate place, I'm sure you'd get lots of replies. If you do, you'd better pack a lunch.

Hell, you'd better pack all you can carry.

Steven Avery · 05-02-2007, 04:23 PM

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherMithras

practitioners of Voodoo ... nonsensical rantings ... I don't know, or care honestly.

The last phrase puts it in a nutshell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobar

Praxeus, when you are able to demonstrate to us precisely how your god is distinguishable from a malfunction within your own mind, then we can talk.

That's ok, Jobar, no favors requested. When I posted I was not looking to dialog with you, simply to offer counterpoint to the pharmacopeia propaganda.

Shalom,
Steven

Vivo · 05-02-2007, 05:16 PM

I'm gonna exercise some Sam Harris conversation intolerance, and say that, no matter how much you acknowledge you do, as if to lessen the impact of that fact, you are dodging questions - those we ask you, and those you should ask yourself - Peter Kirby.

Vivo · 05-02-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

"The cat is black."

vs.

Yea, verily, unto those for whom the ears are but vestiges of sound but not understanding. I emote therefore from my breast, albeit with words.

Words, so tragic - that feelings cannot be captured but in their most tawdry form - yet without which the shade of the being which I speak remains though shrouded in mystery...

So boldy and without hesitation I speak forth of this hue, so deep, of the creature - clawed, as is wont by those of its kind. 'Tis but the lesser of the felines and still, with grace and poise stands against the sky in full glory.

Indeed, as bright as is the day this color shines yet in the opposite manner in its expression. So as the soul of it were sun and the make of it the void and utter darkness.

etc.

To each his own I guess.

LOL! nice.

Religion needs obfuscation and dishonesty, "curiosity killed the cat"s, etc.

Peter Kirby · 05-02-2007, 07:54 PM

Hey Vivo,

Your opinion is noted. However, since I am not dodging questions, the note reads something like, "oh look, another person who doesn't know me trying to act as if they do." I've gotten to note a lot of this since I left the Infidel fold. Everyone has their opinion, and generally the lower opinions issued from those who do not know me.

The only one question which I have been alleged to have dodged here, is the meaning of the crucifixion. If you are eager to learn of the crucifixion's significance, I will give it to you in brief. Colossians 2:14-15 reads, "obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross; despoiling the principalities and the powers, he made a public spectacle of them, leading them away in triumph by it." The epistle here makes two statements about the crucifixion. First, if we were expected to be perfect according to the Hebrew law or even the natural law, we would all fall short of perfection. In the biblical understanding, it would be impossible for us to be in full communion with God if we were imperfect, which we are; so, to bridge the gap, God became human and took the fall for us, in order that we may accept a forgiveness paid for by Jesus Christ. That much, I think, most atheists of Protestant background have some familiarity with. The second thing, which I find more remarkable even than the first, is that the crucifixion is the triumph of God as Christ over the "principalities and powers" that lay claim to us, our thoughts, and our devotion; that by the cross Christ led them forth as his captives in the style of a Roman triumphal procession. What are the principalities and powers? They are the gods--biblically, false gods--to which we pay homage, verbally or in action. They could be the pursuit of wealth, high reputation, political power; captivity to drugs, a hobby, or a game; and generally whatever makes us less human because we become servants to it, rather than it being a good thing for our pleasure as God would want. Christ is the true God who keeps us free from such; Christ, whose disregard for worldly powers led to his execution by them, demonstrated to the world what was truly meant by the ancient dictum "every good man is free," and offers to us his power to lift us out of sin, death, evil, and slavery to the gods of this world.

I hope that I have thus escaped the false charge of dodging questions, but if you have another for me, I will do my best with you to approach the question and address it honestly.

Alethias · 05-02-2007, 09:05 PM

I'm seeing a little too much religion here for the Lounge. I'm moving it to GRD.

Alethias,
Lounge Mod

Peter Kirby · 05-02-2007, 09:14 PM

Alright, I figure it should have been forwarded here in the first place. I posted to BC&H forum because it is my 'home' here at IIDB and where the also-misplaced "Peter Kirby." thread was.

Vivo · 05-03-2007, 12:15 AM

Hey Peter, not trying to be hurtful or anything. Just being real. Throughout this post I'll toss a couple questions at you, if you don't mind. Please feel free to return the favour.

Perhaps my label of "question dodging" is harsh (and literally untrue, I concede), but I mean it in the spirit that you haven't really been talking to us about these things, man. I'm not proposing we set up a Peter Kirby interrogation, but it would help if maybe you gave your opinion on how a loving God could allow something like hell to exist, etc. Even from the Christian perspective, this could be a noble cause, helping to bring us infidels toward the light (though this place is notorious for accomplishing the opposite :devil1: hehehehhehhehhe).

Dude, I don't know you, never met you, can't say I really know who you are, but I'll venture this criticism: you're not being honest. Man, you know what religion is! You honestly believe Christianity is any more true than voodoo or scientiology? What has convinced you of this?

Thank you very much for your succinct overview of the crucifixion, and what it means to Christians. Of course, I find it absurd, no offense meant buddy. You honestly don't have any logical qualms with that story? Do you feel the same way towards Noah's flood that you do towards the crucifixion?

Do you think it's possible that sentiment, more than reason, has lead you to Christianity? If not, what has? (I kind of already asked you that)

Feel free to take issue with anything I say here - I would appreciate it.

Don't you think the warm, welcoming, comforting environment of the church, and religion in general, is seductive? The peer bonding and friendship, the common cause, the shared, special knowledge, the brotherhood. Religions manufacture this! (too broad a statement?) It's not their byproduct, its their fundamental pillar. I really don't see why there can't be rational, naturalistic equivalents, without the faith and evil-doing-dogmas. Without any dogma.

Well, it's getting to the point where I'm just tossing opinions at you. Please, feel free to respond and discuss with me these things. I would appreciate it, really.

My best buddy's a Christian by the way, just finished a year at a Christian college actually, and we regularly muse on this crap. Fun fun fun!

Best wishes,
Sincerely,
Vivo :wave:

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05-02-2007, 05:56 AM	#23
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Praxeus, when you are able to demonstrate to us precisely how your god is distinguishable from a malfunction within your own mind, then we can talk. Until such time, all the evidence suggests that what you think is external to you is in fact internal, and that god is a figment of your imagination. If you care to start a thread in a more appropriate place, I'm sure you'd get lots of replies. If you do, you'd better pack a lunch. Hell, you'd better pack all you can carry.

05-02-2007, 05:16 PM	#25
Vivo Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 379	I'm gonna exercise some Sam Harris conversation intolerance, and say that, no matter how much you acknowledge you do, as if to lessen the impact of that fact, you are dodging questions - those we ask you, and those you should ask yourself - Peter Kirby.

05-02-2007, 07:54 PM	#27
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Hey Vivo, Your opinion is noted. However, since I am not dodging questions, the note reads something like, "oh look, another person who doesn't know me trying to act as if they do." I've gotten to note a lot of this since I left the Infidel fold. Everyone has their opinion, and generally the lower opinions issued from those who do not know me. The only one question which I have been alleged to have dodged here, is the meaning of the crucifixion. If you are eager to learn of the crucifixion's significance, I will give it to you in brief. Colossians 2:14-15 reads, "obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross; despoiling the principalities and the powers, he made a public spectacle of them, leading them away in triumph by it." The epistle here makes two statements about the crucifixion. First, if we were expected to be perfect according to the Hebrew law or even the natural law, we would all fall short of perfection. In the biblical understanding, it would be impossible for us to be in full communion with God if we were imperfect, which we are; so, to bridge the gap, God became human and took the fall for us, in order that we may accept a forgiveness paid for by Jesus Christ. That much, I think, most atheists of Protestant background have some familiarity with. The second thing, which I find more remarkable even than the first, is that the crucifixion is the triumph of God as Christ over the "principalities and powers" that lay claim to us, our thoughts, and our devotion; that by the cross Christ led them forth as his captives in the style of a Roman triumphal procession. What are the principalities and powers? They are the gods--biblically, false gods--to which we pay homage, verbally or in action. They could be the pursuit of wealth, high reputation, political power; captivity to drugs, a hobby, or a game; and generally whatever makes us less human because we become servants to it, rather than it being a good thing for our pleasure as God would want. Christ is the true God who keeps us free from such; Christ, whose disregard for worldly powers led to his execution by them, demonstrated to the world what was truly meant by the ancient dictum "every good man is free," and offers to us his power to lift us out of sin, death, evil, and slavery to the gods of this world. I hope that I have thus escaped the false charge of dodging questions, but if you have another for me, I will do my best with you to approach the question and address it honestly.

05-02-2007, 09:05 PM	#28
Alethias Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 7,198	I'm seeing a little too much religion here for the Lounge. I'm moving it to GRD. Alethias, Lounge Mod

05-02-2007, 09:14 PM	#29
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Alright, I figure it should have been forwarded here in the first place. I posted to BC&H forum because it is my 'home' here at IIDB and where the also-misplaced "Peter Kirby." thread was.

05-03-2007, 12:15 AM	#30
Vivo Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 379	Hey Peter, not trying to be hurtful or anything. Just being real. Throughout this post I'll toss a couple questions at you, if you don't mind. Please feel free to return the favour. Perhaps my label of "question dodging" is harsh (and literally untrue, I concede), but I mean it in the spirit that you haven't really been talking to us about these things, man. I'm not proposing we set up a Peter Kirby interrogation, but it would help if maybe you gave your opinion on how a loving God could allow something like hell to exist, etc. Even from the Christian perspective, this could be a noble cause, helping to bring us infidels toward the light (though this place is notorious for accomplishing the opposite :devil1: hehehehhehhehhe). Dude, I don't know you, never met you, can't say I really know who you are, but I'll venture this criticism: you're not being honest. Man, you know what religion is! You honestly believe Christianity is any more true than voodoo or scientiology? What has convinced you of this? Thank you very much for your succinct overview of the crucifixion, and what it means to Christians. Of course, I find it absurd, no offense meant buddy. You honestly don't have any logical qualms with that story? Do you feel the same way towards Noah's flood that you do towards the crucifixion? Do you think it's possible that sentiment, more than reason, has lead you to Christianity? If not, what has? (I kind of already asked you that) Feel free to take issue with anything I say here - I would appreciate it. Don't you think the warm, welcoming, comforting environment of the church, and religion in general, is seductive? The peer bonding and friendship, the common cause, the shared, special knowledge, the brotherhood. Religions manufacture this! (too broad a statement?) It's not their byproduct, its their fundamental pillar. I really don't see why there can't be rational, naturalistic equivalents, without the faith and evil-doing-dogmas. Without any dogma. Well, it's getting to the point where I'm just tossing opinions at you. Please, feel free to respond and discuss with me these things. I would appreciate it, really. My best buddy's a Christian by the way, just finished a year at a Christian college actually, and we regularly muse on this crap. Fun fun fun! Best wishes, Sincerely, Vivo :wave:

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