Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hopeful Monsters · 02-26-2005, 09:39 AM

I suspect you're right - it is not a the greatest drawing. People should look at the OP for examples of different, photographed, whale pectoral fin bones.

Hopeful Monsters · 02-26-2005, 10:13 AM

...in RealPlayer

...in QuickTime Player

With thanks to PBS: Whale Evolution by PBS

___________________________________

And here is Transitional Forms of Whales/Whale Evolution ― note important point about ear bones.

:

Monad · 02-26-2005, 11:00 AM

Reminds me of a disagreement I had with an ID supporter on another forum. He was saying that the Whales could never have evolved from animals with hands because he couldn't see how you could have a forelimb that was halfway between a grasping hand and a flipper - it would be useless for either function (in his view).

kind of sums up the stupidity of ID really

Martin B · 02-26-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monad:
...he couldn't see how you could have a forelimb that was halfway between a grasping hand and a flipper - it would be useless for either function (in his view)

I guess this guy has never been swimming before.

Blinn · 02-27-2005, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic Tamzek

Random question: does the ulna (I think that's the ulna) in the bat arm do anything? It looks reduced and doesn't extend all the way to the wrist.

From Mammalogy, 3rd edition, T.A. Vaughan:

Quote:

The distal part of the ulna is reduced in bats, and the proximal section usually forms an important part of the articular surface of the elbow joint.

The text also mentions the reduced fibula but doesn't elaborate on its function.

Valentine Pontifex · 02-27-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity

Whale evolution―

Mesonychid origins of whales was disproven for fossil finds several years ago. They used to be a favorite of fossil people.

Per Ahlberg · 02-27-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Escapevelocity, in that picture above, with the 4 different forelimbs, it looks like the whale one has an excessive number of phalanges. Is that right, or is it 'artistic license' and not really a good illustration?

Cheers,
Lane

It's probably accurate. Hyperphalangy is quite common in marine tetrapod flippers (e.g. whales, plesiosaurs, ichthyosaurs), whereas hyperdactyly is much rarer - restricted to ichthyosaurs as far as I recall.

Cheers, Per

Varecia · 02-27-2005, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Nic Tamzek
Random question: does the ulna (I think that's the ulna) in the bat arm do anything? It looks reduced and doesn't extend all the way to the wrist.

Varecia: From the photo, it looks like it's also fused to the radius (at least the right side looks fused; the left looks like it's broken). While I've not studied bats, it does remind me of the fusion of lower leg bones in tarsiers, who are great leapers. Similarly, I'm guessing that it is an adaptation to the biomechanical stresses of the bat wing.

premjan · 02-27-2005, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valentine Pontifex

Mesonychid origins of whales was disproven for fossil finds several years ago. They used to be a favorite of fossil people.

don't they assume whales are cousins of hippos nowadays?

Hopeful Monsters · 02-28-2005, 02:59 AM

Valentine Pontifex - I too saw something on this (Mesonychids no longer considered a very early ancestor) but have not had time to research it.

premjan - one recent piece of evidence I read yesterday suggests that DNA analysis of living mammals show the hippopotamus to be the closest living relative of whales.

02-26-2005, 10:13 AM	#22
Hopeful Monsters Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: God is a Mind Loop Posts: 1,344	Watch a 5 minute movie about whale evolution ...in RealPlayer ...in QuickTime Player With thanks to PBS: Whale Evolution by PBS ___________________________________ And here is Transitional Forms of Whales/Whale Evolution ― note important point about ear bones. :

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02-26-2005, 09:39 AM	#21
Hopeful Monsters Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: God is a Mind Loop Posts: 1,344	I suspect you're right - it is not a the greatest drawing. People should look at the OP for examples of different, photographed, whale pectoral fin bones.

02-26-2005, 11:00 AM	#23
Monad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,127	Reminds me of a disagreement I had with an ID supporter on another forum. He was saying that the Whales could never have evolved from animals with hands because he couldn't see how you could have a forelimb that was halfway between a grasping hand and a flipper - it would be useless for either function (in his view). kind of sums up the stupidity of ID really

02-27-2005, 11:09 PM	#28
Varecia Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 926	Originally Posted by Nic Tamzek Random question: does the ulna (I think that's the ulna) in the bat arm do anything? It looks reduced and doesn't extend all the way to the wrist. Varecia: From the photo, it looks like it's also fused to the radius (at least the right side looks fused; the left looks like it's broken). While I've not studied bats, it does remind me of the fusion of lower leg bones in tarsiers, who are great leapers. Similarly, I'm guessing that it is an adaptation to the biomechanical stresses of the bat wing.

02-28-2005, 02:59 AM	#30
Hopeful Monsters Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: God is a Mind Loop Posts: 1,344	Valentine Pontifex - I too saw something on this (Mesonychids no longer considered a very early ancestor) but have not had time to research it. premjan - one recent piece of evidence I read yesterday suggests that DNA analysis of living mammals show the hippopotamus to be the closest living relative of whales.

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