Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 08:00 PM

In other words, the first of the seven days of Passover/Unleavened Bread is without foundation. It doesn't make sense. The Samaritans know that it was the seventh day of the seven days of Passover/Unleavened Bread which was 'symbolic' Sabbath, the Sabbath by which all Sabbaths received their sanctity. Think about it. It makes a lot more sense.

spin · 03-16-2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I will take your avoidance of the facts as an admission that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about sabbaths. That's why you want to talk about anything but Lev 23:5-8. Now that we have established that there is nothing about sabbaths in Lev 23:5-8, your dating of the death of Jesus to a supposed high sabbath for the first of unleavened bread is shown to be a sham.

Hi Spin, you state this:

Quote:

Spin's Challenge:
Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.

And I show there is a mention of a Sabbath in Lev 23:11 that clearly is in reference to the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why are you in denial? KB

Your claim is unfounded. Lev 23:11 talks of a sabbath. Lev 23:5-8 doesn't. You cannot relate the sabbath of Lev 23:11 to the miqra ("holy convocation") on the first of unleavened bread.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The Samaritan chronology understands that the first of the seven Sabbaths of Pentecost is the Sabbath of the Sea. The six Sabbaths are regarded as following the course of the journey in the wilderness, and are called by the names of the several events which marked it. Thus, No. 1 is היס שבת, the Sabbath of the sea (Exod. 14); No. 2, מרה (Exod. 15, 23); No. 3, אילים (ib. 27); No- 4, המן (Exod. 16, 15); No. 5, הצור (Exod. 17, 6); No. 6, עמלק (ib. 8). The seventh Sabbath commemorates the giving of the law on Mount Sinai, as with the modern Jews, but the idea of a feast of harvest is also comprised in it.

In the original chronology the Sabbath which starts the counting occurred on the 21st.

Hi Stephan, when do the Samaritans say the waving of the Firstfruits should occur? KB

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, you state this:

And I show there is a mention of a Sabbath in Lev 23:11 that clearly is in reference to the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why are you in denial? KB

Your claim is unfounded. Lev 23:11 talks of a sabbath. Lev 23:5-8 doesn't. You cannot relate the sabbath of Lev 23:11 to the miqra ("holy convocation") on the first of unleavened bread.

Hi Spin, maybe, but maybe not. What Sabbath does the counting begin from according to Jewish tradition? KB

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The original understanding (= the archetype) was that the 21st was the Sabbath from which the omer was counted. I had lunch with my Samaritan friend Benny sometime back and he noted that it wasn't just on the seventh day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread that Samaritans sang about the crossing of the sea BUT EVERY SABBATH EVENING. The Samaritan's Benny noted didn't just think that the crossing of the sea occurred on the seventh day of a seventh day period but specifically - on a Sabbath. In other words, like the story of Creation 'the seventh day' was specifically the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK. As such EVERY SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK became a remembrance of the Sabbath upon which the kingdom of Israel was established (Marqe's words).

Hi Stephan, so the seventh day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath? That position disagrees with Spin. KB

spin · 03-16-2013, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Wouldn't a community with a 364 day calendar always have the 14th on a Sabbath? If the first of the first fell on the first day of the week doesn't that mean that the 14th always falls on the seventh day?

Yes, given your conditions. However, the first day of the 264-day year is taken to be the day that god created the sun and moon, so it would be a "Wednesday". (Pesakh would be a Tuesday and the 1st of unleavened bread would be a Wednesday.)

spin · 03-16-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, you state this:

And I show there is a mention of a Sabbath in Lev 23:11 that clearly is in reference to the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why are you in denial? KB

Your claim is unfounded. Lev 23:11 talks of a sabbath. Lev 23:5-8 doesn't. You cannot relate the sabbath of Lev 23:11 to the miqra ("holy convocation") on the first of unleavened bread.

Hi Spin, maybe, but maybe not. What Sabbath does the counting begin from according to Jewish tradition? KB

We are not dealing with Jewish tradition, as that is unanalyzable regarding dating. We have the text of Leviticus, which certainly doesn't support you.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, maybe, but maybe not. What Sabbath does the counting begin from according to Jewish tradition? KB

We are not dealing with Jewish tradition, as that is unanalyzable regarding dating. We have the text of Leviticus, which certainly doesn't support you.

Hi Spin, so Spin's tradition is more accurate and analyzable than the people who experienced the Feast Days and Sabbath? You are beginning to give me some giggles. KB

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Hi Stephan, when do the Samaritans say the waving of the Firstfruits should occur? KB

After the Sabbath that fell during the Festival of Unleavened Bread. This was also the view of the Sadducees (or Boethusians) and the later Karaites.

Let me make clear. All of what I was citing was based on the understanding of what the ancient Israelites did. Neither the first nor the seventh day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread was taken to be a 'Sabbath' per se each year.

The Falashas, the Syriac text of Leviticus and the Book of Jubilees all take the 21st (= the seventh day of Unleavened Bread) to be the Sabbath and the 22nd to begin the counting of the Omer.

spin · 03-16-2013, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, maybe, but maybe not. What Sabbath does the counting begin from according to Jewish tradition? KB

We are not dealing with Jewish tradition, as that is unanalyzable regarding dating. We have the text of Leviticus, which certainly doesn't support you.

Hi Spin, so Spin's tradition is more accurate and analyzable than the people who experienced the Feast Days and Sabbath? You are beginning to give me some giggles. KB

Hollow laughter of someone without an argument.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-16-2013, 08:00 PM	#151
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	In other words, the first of the seven days of Passover/Unleavened Bread is without foundation. It doesn't make sense. The Samaritans know that it was the seventh day of the seven days of Passover/Unleavened Bread which was 'symbolic' Sabbath, the Sabbath by which all Sabbaths received their sanctity. Think about it. It makes a lot more sense.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.