Mageth

Perhaps lost in the pointing out of the fact that you are apparently confused about the theory of Mitochondrial Eve is that the onus lies on you to provide evidence that there was an Adam, not for anyone here to provide evidence that there was no Adam (though, I must say, the tons of evidence we do have from Geology, Archaeology, Biology, etc. do clearly indicate that Adam and Eve are mythical).

As long as there's no real evidence to provide support for the existence of Adam and Eve, it is quite proper to assume that they are mythical. A&E are just part of the rest of the Genesis creation myth, none of which there is any evidence to support; indeed, the evidence we do have totally contradicts the Genesis creation accounts and make it clear that they are mythical.

Magus55

And just maybe your evidence is wrong, or missing pieces? Jesus made reference to Adam and Eve. Jesus is the second Adam. If there was no first, there can't be a second. And I think Jesus is just a little bit smarter than any other human to ever exist. I'll trust God, you trust man. Leave it at that.

Godless Wonder

Adam? Wouldn't it be Noah?

Doctor X

Indeed, Picture, as other posters have noted, Satan is not described as a serpent in the OT.

However, some Gnostic groups taking a literal reading of the myths--seeing man created twice, the world reordered twice and, gee whiz, a deity that tried to prevent man from developing, ruled YHWH as an evil demiurge--a false god in a sense. I rather enjoy the Gnostic Hypostasis of the Archons where the "blind god" called Samuel proclaims himself the "one true" deity only to have the Big Voice shout him down! Would love to see that filmed.

The serpent? Why, he tries to demonstrate to Adam and Eve their true nature. He is a good character. In Christian Gnosticism he is Jesus.

See how interpreting with preconceived notions can lead one to all sorts of conclusions?

--J.D.

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
And just maybe your evidence is wrong,

If anything, you should be calling into question the interpretations reached from the evidence, not the evidence itself. The evidence is neither right nor wrong; it is just evidence (e.g. the fossil record). In any case, the evidence does not support a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation account. Whether other interpretations of the evidence are correct is a different debate.

or missing pieces?

Of course it's missing pieces. But the pieces that are there clearly do not support a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Jesus made reference to Adam and Eve.

So what?

Jesus is the second Adam. If there was no first, there can't be a second.

Using one mythicized character to support another mythical character is not a strong argument.

And I think Jesus is just a little bit smarter than any other human to ever exist.

Unsupported assertion. But even if so, so what? He did not have the evidence we have today that is counter to a literal interpretation of the myths he may or may not have believed in.

I'll trust God, you trust man. Leave it at that.

I don't have to trust man on this. The evidence is there for all to see - unlike God.

Doctor X

Simply spouting confessions of faith does not further criticism or history.

--J.D.

Ellis14

Whilst I don't want to criticize Magus55 personally, I wonder what his motives are for entering a lively and healthly discussion of scripture, only to refute logic and evidence. If logic or evidence is irrelevant, what's the point of having an argument?

Surely you can see Magus55 that by rejecting the evidence when it conflicts with your worldview, (although your prerogative), you are left to assume your position on faith alone. How is that assumption justified in relation to any other religion? How can you logically prove with evidence that your understandings and beliefs are correct over all others when logic and evidence refute your beliefs? Just curious, I would appreciate an answer...

Doctor X

For some, the struggle itself justifies the faith. The more absurd the position, the more they must fight to sustain it. The more they fight, the more worthy of their faith they become.

--J.D.

TheDiddleyMan

Okay, yes anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, but to call on the name of the Lord means something other than "lip service."

You know, I'm not a believer in the bible and don't think it is innerant, but I am quite puzzled and surprised by those who believe that Christians believed things or said things that would make them some of the dumbest people around. If Paul meant that physically calling the name of the Lord was enough for salvation, he would be blatantly contradicting the beliefs of the Christians in his "group" at the time (as Christianity was multifaceted) at the time and himself....

Verses 8 and 9

But what does it say? ‘The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


So, in the passages earlier it says that more than lip service is involved.

So, really, it is the bible critics who are taking the passage out of context, and quite obviously at that.

Having said that I do believe that the bible teaches or at the very list implies different things about how one is saved. For example is baptism needed or not? But, salvation can be viewed from different angles, and the same language that is not always used to describe it, and the metaphors and speech devices used are always taken over literally by critics who are, IMHO, grasping at straws to try and prove that the bible is false and not the word of God. I would agree with them but am surprised at the levels some people will go to try and prove it, which are really no less problematic then the attempts of those who believe in the inerrancy of the bible.

That's my belief, anyhow....


Kevin

Love Fountain

Hi blindwatchmaker,

The Bible is a book within a book, until a person learns how to read it with their heart to learn the difference between a servant and a friend, the two will be mistaken for each other.

Happy New Year,
Love Fountain