Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IamJoseph · 06-04-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

But isn't Jerome's Vulgate translated from the Septuagint?

No, the Vulgate Old Testament is mostly direct translation from Hebrew to Latin (Psalms and Apocrypha are special cases.)

Andrew Criddle

This is surprising. The Hebrews spoke no latin; even the Greek Septuagint was done by Hebrews. This issue impinges on who wrote the Gospels too.

andrewcriddle · 06-06-2009, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

But isn't Jerome's Vulgate translated from the Septuagint?

No, the Vulgate Old Testament is mostly direct translation from Hebrew to Latin (Psalms and Apocrypha are special cases.)

Andrew Criddle

This is surprising. The Hebrews spoke no latin; even the Greek Septuagint was done by Hebrews. This issue impinges on who wrote the Gospels too.

Jerome was a Christian not a Jew. He translated the Vulgate from Hebrew to Latin to provide Latin speaking Christians with a reliable version of the Old Testament.

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley · 06-07-2009, 07:13 AM

Wasn't it the Old Latin version, which predated Jerome, that was a translation of the Old Greek?

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

But isn't Jerome's Vulgate translated from the Septuagint?

No, the Vulgate Old Testament is mostly direct translation from Hebrew to Latin (Psalms and Apocrypha are special cases.)

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley · 06-07-2009, 08:12 AM

The Talmud contains many Latin loan-words. Not so sure about the Mishna. I believe the Old Latin was a translation of the Old Greek (Lxx) and maybe other Greek translations, all (Old Latin & Greek translations used by the Old Latin) probably done by Jews.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

No, the Vulgate Old Testament is mostly direct translation from Hebrew to Latin (Psalms and Apocrypha are special cases.)

Andrew Criddle

This is surprising. The Hebrews spoke no latin; even the Greek Septuagint was done by Hebrews. This issue impinges on who wrote the Gospels too.

andrewcriddle · 06-08-2009, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Wasn't it the Old Latin version, which predated Jerome, that was a translation of the Old Greek?

DCH

Yes.

Andrew Criddle

IamJoseph · 06-09-2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

This discussion of the Vulgate's Latin translation of Exodus 3:14 I think is fundamentally irrelevant to the original -- it was not originally in Latin or even in Greek, but in Hebrew.

I've noted an ambiguity in it between the present tense and the present participle, making "(I) am" and "(the) being" look the same in Hebrew.

What I find annoying is the claim that Exodus 3:14 supports the claim that God is being itself, as opposed to an entity with properties. To me, that seems like an overinterpretation, and contrary to how the rest of the Bible describes the Biblical God. That entity is described as a discrete entity with lots of properties, including very anthropomorphic ones, it must be said.

I find the description, 'SON OF MAN' just as astonishing as the 'I AM'. What human would use such a transcendent term, representing such a big picture over-view? Its like the boss of a farm teling one of his employees, 'HEY POTATO GROWER'.

IamJoseph · 06-09-2009, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

This is surprising. The Hebrews spoke no latin; even the Greek Septuagint was done by Hebrews. This issue impinges on who wrote the Gospels too.

Jerome was a Christian not a Jew. He translated the Vulgate from Hebrew to Latin to provide Latin speaking Christians with a reliable version of the Old Testament.

Andrew Criddle

Can you back this with any historical evidence, and how is it determined there was a Hebrew wiriting alligning with the Gospels - I wish there was, and find this very suspicious we have none!?

The Romans never spoke Hebrew, and the Hebrews never spoke or wrote in Latin. Even the Greeks used Hebrews to translate the Septuagint in 300 BCE - because Jews spoke Greek. The term 'Christian' did not emerge till 174 CE - does it mean Jerome wrote after this time?

andrewcriddle · 06-09-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

The term 'Christian' did not emerge till 174 CE - does it mean Jerome wrote after this time?

Jerome translated the Vulgate c 400 CE.
(I'm genuinely surprised that you appear unaware of this.)

Andrew Criddle

show_no_mercy · 06-09-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I find the description, 'SON OF MAN' just as astonishing as the 'I AM'. What human would use such a transcendent term, representing such a big picture over-view? Its like the boss of a farm teling one of his employees, 'HEY POTATO GROWER'.

The phrase "son of man" is used over 40 times in Ezekiel (IIRC) refering to himself. I don't think the phrase took on an apocalyptic meaning until Daniel.

Lugubert · 06-10-2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I find the description, 'SON OF MAN' just as astonishing as the 'I AM'. What human would use such a transcendent term, representing such a big picture over-view? Its like the boss of a farm teling one of his employees, 'HEY POTATO GROWER'.

The phrase "son of man" is used over 40 times in Ezekiel (IIRC) refering to himself. I don't think the phrase took on an apocalyptic meaning until Daniel.

And anyway, it's a common Semitic pattern. 'Son of man' ben-adam means just "human being, man".

Other examples in Bible Hebrew: ben-sheba` 'son-of-seven' "a 7 year old boy", banu-yisra'el 'Israel's sons/children' "the Israelites".

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