Plastic Jesus

Well, for the longest time, I had thought that Jesus had meant "generation". A few days ago, I did some reseach, and I've changed my mind. I don't have the information I want on hand, but I should be able to get it and post it tonight, hopefully. However, I'd like to start a new thread on it, or post on an older one.

But, I was wondering about the prophecies concerning the messiah, and how Jesus supposedly fulfilled those. I may have read wrong, but if the books were written 200 years before Jesus' alledged birth, then what? Tonight, also, I will try and post a list of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled, and where the verses are.

unknown4

Plastic, I don't necessarily have a problem with saying that most of what Christians term as the OT was around before Jesus. The question is, were the NT authors correct in claiming that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy? In a sense, I wonder, "why would they lie?" But, I look at religions in general, and I could wonder the same thing, why did Muhammad, Joseph Smith, author(s) of the Urantia book, Desatir lie? Why did the Bab and Baha'ullah lie? Why did Zoroaster lie? Buddha? Mahavira? Why did the Hadith lie about the miracle of the moon splitting? Why did the author of the Gospel of Barnabas lie? The NT apocrypha? What about Guru Nanak?

The point is, someone could espouse a high morality, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're telling the truth about religion.

Asha'man

If you ask a Jewish Rabbi, he will tell you that Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies required to be a messiah. He will go into great depth and detail about misreading of prophecy, and turning and twisting things to look like prophecy when they aren’t. The simple truth is that Jesus wasn’t the messiah, according to the very people who defined the messiah.

The other side of the coin is to understand the gospels as midrash, not history. The Jews had a tradition of taking old stories from scripture and re-writing them, presenting them in the present, in order to make a point. They were not supposed to be interpreted as history, everyone knew they were a fictional re-telling of an old story. When the gospels were written in the late 1st century, this is almost certainly what they started as. Jesus was just a character, set in the ‘recent past’, used to present an updated message as a preaching tool. By definition, this character was seen doing things that were talked about in old scripture, because that is exactly how the story was supposed to be written.

But then something strange happened. The gospels were presented to a non-Jewish audience, an audience who didn’t understand midrash. They saw these stories of Jesus, and heard about similar stories in the old Jewish scripture. Instead of understanding midrash, they saw it as prophecy coming true. They thought these were true accounts of a man who walked this earth, rather than the fiction that they were written as. They learned about the original stories, and thought it was proof that god had foretold things ages in advance.

When you understand the order in which things happened, and their causes, then suddenly there isn’t anything left to explain. There are no prophecies, none at all.

christ-on-a-stick

Hey Cindy -

As it appears that you are choosing the leave the premises (and the fact that your latest few posts have left an exceptionally bad taste in my mouth) I will respond to you here instead of replying to your PM. (BTW, I do thank you for your compliment(s) and regardless of what I am about to say, I do not wish you ill. I am fairly certain that I don't have a mean bone in my body (well maybe like a pinky or something, like anyone when necessary, but for the most part I really wish only health and happiness for all even if I don't believe that "in spite of everything, people are really good at heart" (paraphrased from Anne Frank, may have got it wrong in part).

So, what I wish to say is this: your posts (particularly on this thread) absolutely embody the type of irony that some infidels fairly choke on for its rank hypocrisy (can't speak for everyone, of course, but I am certain I'm not alone). While I haven't gone through each of the threads you have been active on with a fine-toothed-comb, I'm pretty sure that you haven't been repeately bombarded with condescending proclomations of how "sorry we feel for you" that you are so "anti-reason" and "anti-normalcy" and how it's sooooo SAD that you are so deluded and warped by your cult. People have made good and, if I dare say, charitable arguments (assuming that you are well intentioned) about the merits (or pitfalls) of WHAT you would be doing, and not YOU. I am not igoring the fact that a few - a SCANT few by any measure, considering the number of replies your topic has engendered - have been harsh. However, your flippancy and at times outright hostility toward those who are, with good will, bringing certain issues to the table (while still wishing you safety and good health) strikes me as not only remarkably immature and arrogant but a classic example of those traits as ingrained in Christianity.

You came here. You conversed. A few people were snotty, many were open and conversant. You announced your mission; again, a few people were snotty, many, MANY more were conversant and willing to discuss your plans while still not condemning you PERSONALLY AS A HUMAN BEING (which stands in stark contrast to YOUR ideology, which cannot help but condemn both. I find it ultimately more moral to be able to, in Xian-speak, condemn the sin and not the sinner - and yet I find that it is more probable that a NON-religious person can achieve this feat.

And when the going gets rough, you trot out these incredibly insulting comments about how "dark" a place this is and how it depresses you. Be that as it may - I have not the slightest clue what your proclivities and/or sensitivities are, so maybe you ARE reallly depressed by this stuff - I have a really, REALLY hard time understanding...

...how anyone can find US depressing when the loons over at Christian Forums and RR are talking about invisible spirits in the sky that are having effect on human beings, making them do Bad Things (hello, Andrea Yates! ) and how gay people should burn in hell for the crime of loving another person ( 'cuz we all know God really gives a shit about who puts what where when people and children are starving across the globe, including in God-ordained wars!) And how George W. Bush, a fucking virtually-retarded puppet, is God's Own President..... and WE MAKE YOU FEEL DARK? AND DEPRESSED?

I beg of you, give reason a chance.

Not to sound patronizing (and I know how lame a caveat that is, and I apologize in advance...) but I once thought the way you do (yes I know you are reading my story and I hope you finish it). But I'm tellin' ya, balls to the wall, that if ever you do decide to challenge your preconceptions and take a chance on discovering what is really "true" (or false) and not merely the wool being pulled over your eyes, enter with your eyes WIDE OPEN - not wide shut.

It is only when you shed the skin of presuppostionalism that you can even hope to arrive at a conclusion that others will respect - and if that means nothing to you, the respect of those well-read and well-versed, then it is indeed a moot point. But please understand enough not to expect people who are better read, better educated, better versed in apologetics and infinintely more competent in philosophy and the like to accept or even TOLERATE your victim mentality and "vain protestations to an empty sky".

Best Regards,

Lauri D.

sodium

Do you have any examples in mind of specific Jewish works that fit this description (outside the Gospels)?

Asha'man

I know such writings have been talked about here, but I can't provide an example for you. I'm not an expert on biblical era writings, I just slept in a Holiday Inn Express, er, read the BC&H forum at II. Maybe one of our experts can point you towards some.

You can plug 'midrash' into google and find tons of stuff, but I don't immediately see any that might be from the time period in question, as opposed to more recent stuff.

Plastic Jesus

"If you ask a Jewish Rabbi, he will tell you that Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies required to be a messiah. He will go into great depth and detail about misreading of prophecy, and turning and twisting things to look like prophecy when they aren’t. The simple truth is that Jesus wasn’t the messiah, according to the very people who defined the messiah."
Do you have a link to a site or something that explains this?

"When the gospels were written in the late 1st century, this is almost certainly what they started as."
Almost certainly? And why would someone have some fictional character...doing...eh, nevermind.

Asha'man

You might find This Jewish Site to be helpful. There are good essays there about what a real Messiah is supposed to do, as well as a Jewish explanation of Midrash. Hmm, also some discussion of non-fulfillment of prophecy. At first glance, they seem to have it covered pretty well.

Most of my info comes from long-term lurking in the BC&H forum, however.