Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ApostateAbe · 12-03-2011, 08:03 AM

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Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

OK, suppose I were to tell you right now that I am pouring myself a cup of hot tea from a teapot made of nothing but Hershey's milk chocolate, and I say, "Believe it, because it is a miracle, and miracles are possible." If you were to believe my claim, would it be absurd?

It would not be absurd for me to believe it, because it might be true.

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If so, what would make my claim absurd?

Nothing. A claim that chocolate teapots were generally useful as teapots would be an absurd claim. No doubt somebody, somewhere actually makes chocolate teapots, but only because they are absurdities.

OK. So, if I can understand your meaning, you would think that the mere possibility (non-zero-probability) of truth, regardless of how small, is enough to render a belief non-absurd?

I don't think in those terms, and I am willing to expand the definition of "absurd" to include sufficiently small non-zero possibilities. That is because almost anything is possible. For example, maybe, just maybe, it really is normal for people to use chocolate teapots, and evil spirits have invaded our brains to mislead you and me into thinking that chocolate is generally not used to make teapots. Even that is possible. But, it is still absurd.

ApostateAbe · 12-03-2011, 08:10 AM

By the way, for anyone who is curious, it turns out that someone really did succeed in producing and using a chocolate teapot (TheNakedScientists.com).

sotto voce · 12-03-2011, 08:17 AM

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

OK. So, if I can understand your meaning, you would think that the mere possibility (non-zero-probability) of truth, regardless of how small, is enough to render a belief non-absurd?

Correct.

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I don't think in those terms

Who gives a damn?

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and I am willing to expand the definition of "absurd" to include sufficiently small non-zero possibilities.

But this is not your private world, where you decide what is valid input and what is not.

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That is because almost anything is possible.

Like miracles.

:wave:

ApostateAbe · 12-03-2011, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

OK. So, if I can understand your meaning, you would think that the mere possibility (non-zero-probability) of truth, regardless of how small, is enough to render a belief non-absurd?

Correct.

Who gives a damn?

But this is not your private world, where you decide what is valid input and what is not.

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That is because almost anything is possible.

Like miracles.

:wave:

That's right. Are you with me on the point that it is possible that evil spirits have misled both of us into thinking that not every teapot is made of chocolate? If not evil spirits, it could be a secret deranged technocracy playing bizarre experiments on our minds for fun, or it could be outerspace alien overlords. Like miracles, those claims are possible. They have non-zero probability. But, they are still absurd. Are you with me on that?

sotto voce · 12-03-2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Correct.

Who gives a damn?

But this is not your private world, where you decide what is valid input and what is not.

Like miracles.

:wave:

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That's right.

Goody lah.

So miracles are possible.

Now drink your tea.

Solo · 12-03-2011, 09:21 AM

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Originally Posted by John Kesler

From the article, with my emphasis:

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....Several years ago, an Indian doctoral student at my seminary explained that his Baptist church in India had grown from a handful of members to about 600 through prayers for healing. He noted that even if I prayed for the sick in India, they would get healed; yet he was dismayed because no one he prayed for in the United States got healed. God was eager for the precious Hindus this man prayed for to know how much He loved them.

Familiarity breeds contempt. :huh:

Best,
Jiri

ApostateAbe · 12-03-2011, 09:26 AM

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Originally Posted by sotto voce

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That's right.

Goody lah.

So miracles are possible.

Now drink your tea.

I would, but there is too much chocolate in it.

Solo · 12-03-2011, 09:36 AM

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

However, we have quite strong evidence, (assuming FTSOA that Dr. Keener is giving accurate reports of what he was told), that a young child had become unconscious following a snake bite, and recovered shortly after being prayed for.

This seems to be prima-facie evidence for healing by prayer.

Andrew Criddle

I am not sure how Dr Keener proposes to establish the causal effect of the prayer on the healing. What woud be the controls here ? Or is the mere fact that child recovered subsequent to being prayed for asserted as evidence for a miracle ? If so, we do not have as much a miracle here, as perhaps a child blessed with a strong immune system and a case of circular reasoning by someone who wants some credit for it.

Best,
Jiri

sotto voce · 12-03-2011, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Goody lah.

So miracles are possible.

Now drink your tea.

I would, but there is too much chocolate in it.

Too much chocolate??? :huh:

ApostateAbe · 12-03-2011, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I would, but there is too much chocolate in it.

Too much chocolate??? :huh:

The hot tea melts the chocolate that the teapot is made of, and I get too much melted chocolate in my tea. I don't know who first thought that was a good idea. These things should be made of ceramic, but they are all made of chocolate.

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12-03-2011, 08:10 AM	#32
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	By the way, for anyone who is curious, it turns out that someone really did succeed in producing and using a chocolate teapot (TheNakedScientists.com).

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