Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-16-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It looks like the old Chrestos-Christos switch.

I agree. Not that anything has physically been switched. It's just that term "chrestos" has attracted the interests of those who wish to attempt to use its every existence as some form of surrogate for useage of the word "christos" and thus "christianity.

In this instance, could the "chrestos" term here be used very simply in the sense of "the good magician"?

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 10-17-2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

In this instance, could the "chrestos" term here be used very simply in the sense of "the good magician"?

Best wishes,

Pete

One of the problems is that GOHS Sorcerer usually has a bad sense.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 10-17-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

In this instance, could the "chrestos" term here be used very simply in the sense of "the good magician"?

One of the problems is that GOHS Sorcerer usually has a bad sense.

Thanks Andrew. Would you mind please expanding this response? I take it you are referring to the sense of the Greek?

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 10-18-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

One of the problems is that GOHS Sorcerer usually has a bad sense.

Thanks Andrew. Would you mind please expanding this response? I take it you are referring to the sense of the Greek?

Best wishes,

Pete

Hi Pete

yes I was referring to the sense of the Greek. There is a discussion at Magic and Magicians in the Roman Empire

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 10-18-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thanks Andrew. Would you mind please expanding this response? I take it you are referring to the sense of the Greek?

Best wishes,

Pete

Hi Pete

yes I was referring to the sense of the Greek. There is a discussion at Magic and Magicians in the Roman Empire

Andrew Criddle

Thanks Andrew,

That is an interesting article.

This is from WIKI on the term Goetia

Quote:

Etymology

Ancient Greek γοητεία (goēteia) means "charm, jugglery"[1] from γόης "sorcerer, wizard"[2]. The meaning of "sorcerer" is attested in a scholion, referring to the Dactyli, stating that according to Pherecydes and Hellanicus, those to the left are goētes, while those to the right are deliverers from sorcery.[3] The word may be ultimately derived from the verb γοάω "groan, bewail". Derived terms are γοήτευμα "a charm" and γοητεύω "to bewitch, beguile".

γοητεία was a term for witchcraft in Hellenistic magic. Latinized goetia via French goétie was adopted into English as goecie, goety in the 16th century.

Best wishes,

Pete

Clivedurdle · 10-18-2008, 02:57 PM

PG Maxwell- Stuart, Witchcraft a History, is very clear that our modern sinister witches did not exist in Greece and Rome, but are medieval inventions - when shall we three meet again?

Quote:

Pliny the Elder advanced the notion that magic arose first from medicine and then went on to embrace religion and astrology. Pliny thus saw magic as a practical art...

p12

Clivedurdle · 10-18-2008, 03:30 PM

And is a possible paraphrase "magic annointing" so might we be looking at a make up or perfumery tool used by women, possibly mass produced, an early part of a woman's dressing table by the equivalent of Chanel?

mountainman · 10-19-2008, 01:33 AM

Conjecture

As I understand it, the greek equivalents to the latin christos and chrestos which were in use during at least the epoch BCE, indicate that the former may have been related to an upper gradation in some form of cermonial temple service, much like the long-term accomplishments of someone doing yoga. The annointment with oil, for example, of ascetic practitioners after long and serious terms of ascetic practice (of various forms) may have been part of some tradition of the custody of these collegiate temple networks in antiquity. My notes are here

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 10-19-2008, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

PG Maxwell- Stuart, Witchcraft a History, is very clear that our modern sinister witches did not exist in Greece and Rome, but are medieval inventions - when shall we three meet again?

I don't think this is really right.
See for a classical example of evil witches
Horace Epode 5

Quote:

When the lad, who lamented with trembling lips
Stood silent, stripped of a boy’s insignia,
His youthful body such a one as might soften
The impious hearts of Thracians:
Canidia, those blunt vipers entangled
In her head of dishevelled hair,
Ordered wild fig-trees, ripped from the sepulchres,
With funereal cypresses,
With the feathers and eggs of nocturnal screech-owls
All smeared with the blood of vile toads,
With herbs that Iolchos and Iberia, fertile
In poisons nurture for us,
And bones snatched from the jaws of a hungry bitch,
All to be burnt in Colchian flames.
Meanwhile eager Sagana, sprinkled water
From Avernus all through the house,
Hair fierce and bristling, like a spiny sea-urchin,
Or like a wild-boar in the chase.
And Veia, unrestrained by sign of conscience,
Was digging the earth, with a sturdy
Mattock, while groaning hard over her labours,
So the lad, buried to his neck,
His face showing like a swimmer’s, chin touching
The surface of the water,
Might die staring at food, brought and taken away
Two or three times each endless day:
This so his marrow and liver, extracted, then
Dried, might form a love potion,
When his eyeballs, fixed on the meal he was denied,
Had shrivelled all to nothingness.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 10-19-2008, 08:41 AM

Didn't Eusebius pontificate over the playing of the bad and good magician cards over the memory of Apollonius of Tyana?

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10-18-2008, 03:30 PM	#17
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And is a possible paraphrase "magic annointing" so might we be looking at a make up or perfumery tool used by women, possibly mass produced, an early part of a woman's dressing table by the equivalent of Chanel?

10-19-2008, 01:33 AM	#18
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Conjecture As I understand it, the greek equivalents to the latin christos and chrestos which were in use during at least the epoch BCE, indicate that the former may have been related to an upper gradation in some form of cermonial temple service, much like the long-term accomplishments of someone doing yoga. The annointment with oil, for example, of ascetic practitioners after long and serious terms of ascetic practice (of various forms) may have been part of some tradition of the custody of these collegiate temple networks in antiquity. My notes are here Best wishes, Pete

10-19-2008, 08:41 AM	#20
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Didn't Eusebius pontificate over the playing of the bad and good magician cards over the memory of Apollonius of Tyana?

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