Freethought & Rationalism Archive

whichphilosophy · 08-12-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

We nailed him up once. We'll do it again. Some people never learn.

RED DAVE

I suppose the holes in his hands would be an indication it could be him of course. Even if he was real one, I doubt if many would believe him.

whichphilosophy · 08-12-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

his message never left, apparently it grew.
Its the message which counts, not the donkey it rides on.

Where does that leave atheists now ?

He could quite possibly have existed, and studied in India. This is not to say whether or not he was Christ, but someone who was attributed to be.

judge · 08-13-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading the replies to my topic question.

Dispensationalists and "left behinders' seem to have the strangest answer to this if we can belive the left behind series (which is a crock).

Quote:

"Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and a yawning chasm opened in the earth, stretching far and wide enough to swallow all of them. They tumbled in, howling and screeching, but their wailing was soon quashed and all was silent when the earth closed itself again."

From Here.

It is weird how Jesus gets transformed into godzilla.

judge · 08-14-2005, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading the replies to my topic question.

Thing is though He is not returning to earth. the idea that jesus would return to earth to set up an earthly beaureaucracy does not seem to be evident in the gospels or early christianity.

This idea seems to have become populay around 150 a.d.

Quote:

John N.D. Kelly
From Early Christian Doctrines
(On the First Century Christians' beliefs)
"..in the apostolic age, as the New Testament documents reveal, the Church was pervaded with an intense conviction that hope to which Israel had looked forward yearningly had at last been fulfilled. ..history had reached its climax and the reign of God, as so many of our Lord's parables imply, had been effectively inaugurated." (pp. 459-461)
".. the Christian's confident and joyous assurance that the age to come has already broken into the present age has faded into the background. He looks upon God, not as the divine Father to Whom he has free access, but as the sternly just distributor of rewards and penalties, while grace has lost the primarily eschatological character it had in the New Testament and has become something to be acquired. ..the temptation to degenerate into a pedestrian moralism in which the "realized" element in its authentic eschatology finds no place was one to which Christianity was a much exposed in the patristic as in every other age." (pp.459-461)
"About the middle of the second century Christian eschatology enters upon a new, rather more mature phase. ..Justin teaches on the basis of Old Testament prophecy that, in addition to His coming in lowliness at His incarnation, Christ will come again in glory .. new emphases and fresh lines of thought begin to appear, partly for apologetic motives and partly as the result of growing speculation. The clash with Judaism and paganism made it imperative to set out the bases of the revealed dogmas more thoroughly. ..millenarianism, or the theory that the returned Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years, came to find increasing support among Christian teachers. We can observe these tendencies at work in the Apologists. Justin, as we have suggested, ransacks the Old Testament for proof, as against Jewish critics, that the Messiah must have a twofold coming. His argument is that, while numerous contexts no doubt predict His coming in humiliation, there are others (e.g. Is. 53:8-12; Ezek. 7f; Dan. 7: 9-28; Zech. 12:10-12; Ps. 72:1-20; 110:1-7) which clearly presuppose His coming in majesty and power. The former coming was enacted at the incarnation, but the latter still lies in the future. It will take place, he suggests, at Jerusalem, where Christ will be recognized by the Jews who dishonored Him as the sacrifice which avails for all penitent sinners, and where He will eat and drink with His disciples; and He will reign there a thousand years. This millenerians, or "chialistic," doctrine was widely popular at this time. .. he confesses that he knows pious, pure-minded Christians who do not share this belief.." (pp. 464-466)

As Kelly notes "partly for apologetic motives" men like Justin begin to introduce new ideas. Apparently infidels like Trypho weren't converting so Justin tries to show from the OT that Christ is going to return and reign in an earthly beaureacracy for 1000 years.

Even though Christ explicitly mentions in luke that the "kingdom of God does not come to be seen "...but rather is within.

Nero's Boot · 08-14-2005, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

That is a description of the spiritually dead,
waiting for the body to follow suit.

Since there is no spirit, I think I'll do just fine.

--

NB

IvanJames · 08-14-2005, 09:06 AM

Alledgedly, once all of us are in Israel, Jebus comes back. 144,000 of us will be saved, and the rest will die & go to hell. This is why some born again yahoos are sending money to Israeli immigration & relocation organizations. With "friends" like this, who needs enemas?

Astreja · 08-14-2005, 10:09 PM

I saw an interesting complication with the Messiah problem: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Messiah supposed to be a king? Can such a person actually show up at all while Israel is ruled by parliament?

Dharma · 08-15-2005, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astreja

I saw an interesting complication with the Messiah problem: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Messiah supposed to be a king? Can such a person actually show up at all while Israel is ruled by parliament?

That's not a problem, rather a challenge for the King of Israel -- the Israeli parliament is gonna burn in hell, and so will all evil supporters of democratic systems and declare himself YHWH's chief grand pooba and king of Israel. I guess George Washington he ain't. Subersion of democratic systems have been successful everywhere.

Johnny Skeptic · 08-15-2005, 09:05 AM

I would like to ask Christians 1) why God chose the Jews to be his chosen people, and 2) why he enabled the Jews to found the state of Israel in Palestine in 1948?

jonesg · 08-15-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero's Boot

Since there is no spirit, I think I'll do just fine.

--

NB

Surprise.
Spirit is mind.

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08-14-2005, 09:06 AM	#16
IvanJames Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 393	Alledgedly, once all of us are in Israel, Jebus comes back. 144,000 of us will be saved, and the rest will die & go to hell. This is why some born again yahoos are sending money to Israeli immigration & relocation organizations. With "friends" like this, who needs enemas?

08-14-2005, 10:09 PM	#17
Astreja Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 2,946	I saw an interesting complication with the Messiah problem: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Messiah supposed to be a king? Can such a person actually show up at all while Israel is ruled by parliament?

08-15-2005, 09:05 AM	#19
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	I would like to ask Christians 1) why God chose the Jews to be his chosen people, and 2) why he enabled the Jews to found the state of Israel in Palestine in 1948?

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