Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gstafleu · 12-14-2006, 04:05 PM

More on "Love your enemies."

Robert Price, in Deconstructing Jesus, lists all of Q1, each verse accompanied by quotes showing where it came from. For "love your enemies" he gives three quotes.

1) A rather nice part of being a Cynic comes when you have to be beaten by an ass, and throughout the beating you have to love those who are beating you as though you were father or brother to them. (Epictetus)

2) How shall I defend myself against my enemy? By being good and kind towards him, replied Diogenes. (Gnomologium Vaticanum)

3) Someone gets angry with you. Challenge him with kindness in return. Enmity immediately tumbles away when one side lets it fall. (Seneca)

Epictetus lived c.55 - c.135 C.E. He could of course have gotten this from Jesus. But it is more likely this was a known mode of thought at the time.

Diogenes was c. 404-323 B.C.E., way before JC. The question then is when the GV was written, and if it accurately quotes Diogenes (I don't know).

Seneca lived ca. 4 BC–AD 65. Same issue as with Epictetus.

My conclusion is that "love your enemies" was a known idea at the time, not unique to Jesus.

John Kesler · 12-14-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

My conclusion is that "love your enemies" was a known idea at the time, not unique to Jesus.

I would argue that the concept of love for one's enemies is an Od Testament concept:

Quote:

Exodus 23:4-5 (NRSV)
4 When you come upon your enemy's ox or donkey going astray, you shall bring it back. 5 When you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden and you would hold back from setting it free, you must help to set it free.

Proverbs 24:17-18 (NRSV)
17 Do not rejoice when your enemies fall, and do not let your heart be glad when they stumble, 18 or else Yahweh will see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from them.

Proverbs 25:21-22 (NRSV)
21 If your enemies are hungry, give them bread to eat; and if they are thirsty, give them water to drink; 22 for you will heap coals of fire on their heads, and Yahweh will reward you.

mountainman · 12-17-2006, 01:49 AM

What is actually novel in the "spiritual advice" of the NT over the OT?

Clivedurdle · 12-17-2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Furthermore, we can understand how it came to be that the "pentecostal" Christian churches of Paul (and others, as attested in Acts) had their origins in Jesus' own activities. After Pentecost, if we are to believe Luke (and why not?), the altered state of consciousness we call spirit possession ceased to be uniquely accredited to Jesus and began to be a sine qua non for membership in the Christian movement. Jesus, at this point, became both an examplar of the possibility of spirit possession (in his life on earth) and was credited with being the one who brings about the state of possession in his followers (the ascended Christ who sends the spirit).

I argue that the idea that Jesus was the embodiment of the spirit of God arose not from pious belief alone but from a series of historical events: repeated occurrences of alterations in ego identity, to be classified anthropologically as possession-trance. This set of historical events received a supernatural explanation during his lifetime: that Jesus was possessed by the spirit of God. If the historical Jesus became the embodiment of the spirit of God this fact, in part, answers the question "how did Jesus heal?" for his self-presentation as one possessed by God's spirit would, were it accepted, lead to the "faith in him" necessary to believe that he could heal and exorcise.

I do not pretend to have expertise in theology, so I try not to argue for my own reflections but do relate certain pertinent ideas of the Cambridge theologian Geoffrey W. H. Lampe, including the following:

"The category of Spirit-possession was used to some extent in early Christian thought to interpret not only Christ's present relationship to believers but also his relationship to God. If believers are sons of God through the indwelling of God's Spirit, possessing their souls and reshaping their lives according to the pattern of Christ, can Christ's own sonship be interpreted in the same terms? The gospels suggest this possibility. In the synoptists Spirit-possession and messianic sonship are linked together in the narrative of Christ's baptism. The Spirit descends upon him and he receives the divine assurance that he is Son of God."

From link above.

I think the originality of Jesus is around bringing together a wish for an annointed saviour and the discovery of techniques to get people quickly in groups into altered states of consciousness. The belief systems of the time would naturally take this as evidence of God with us, the Holy spirit moving amongst us, and the thinking would go, why? Well that is obvious, Paul had a vision. God had a son who was to die "according to the scriptures", and then build up the stories.

I see it the other way round - the Holy Spirit came first, then Jesus completed the story!

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12-14-2006, 04:05 PM	#31
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	More on "Love your enemies." Robert Price, in Deconstructing Jesus, lists all of Q1, each verse accompanied by quotes showing where it came from. For "love your enemies" he gives three quotes. 1) A rather nice part of being a Cynic comes when you have to be beaten by an ass, and throughout the beating you have to love those who are beating you as though you were father or brother to them. (Epictetus) 2) How shall I defend myself against my enemy? By being good and kind towards him, replied Diogenes. (Gnomologium Vaticanum) 3) Someone gets angry with you. Challenge him with kindness in return. Enmity immediately tumbles away when one side lets it fall. (Seneca) Epictetus lived c.55 - c.135 C.E. He could of course have gotten this from Jesus. But it is more likely this was a known mode of thought at the time. Diogenes was c. 404-323 B.C.E., way before JC. The question then is when the GV was written, and if it accurately quotes Diogenes (I don't know). Seneca lived ca. 4 BC–AD 65. Same issue as with Epictetus. My conclusion is that "love your enemies" was a known idea at the time, not unique to Jesus.

12-17-2006, 01:49 AM	#33
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	What is actually novel in the "spiritual advice" of the NT over the OT?

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