ralfellis

Of course there is no evidence in Israel, because they did not go to Israel. This is another convenient Judaic mistranslation.

Instead of Zion (Jerusalem), they went to Zoan (Tanis). If you look in Tanis, you will find all the evidence for the Israelite Exodus and later generations there.


While the empire mentioned for the United Monarchy could not have existed in Judaea at this time, as the economy there could not support it, it could have existed in Egypt. Thus Finkelstein et al are are looking in the wrong location. Instead of trying to find King David in Zion (Jerusalem) we should be looking in Zoan (Tanis).


And if we explore Tanis we find there a new 'United Monarchy'** whose king may well have been called Duad (Dud or David)*** A king who was closely associated with a Star (the Star of Dud or David) and a City (the City of Dud or David).

This king was, of course, Pa-Seba-Khaienuit (My Star rises over my City), or Psusennes, and this new royal line did indeed end up ruling both Zoan (Tanis) and Zion (Judaea).

This is, of course, a monarchy that would easily suit the descriptionsnof wealth, influence and grandure that are ascribed to the United Monarchy - the kind of monarch who could command tribute from Ethiopia (actually, the Queen of Sheba was from Upper Egypt).

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And while this association may seem bizare and unlikely, at first, it is the sort of idea that grows on you. Because we then find that:

King David's daughter was Machah Tamar
Psusennes' daughter was Makhare MuTamhat

King David's army commander was Joab
Psusennes' army commander was En Tchoeb En Djed

King David's architect was called Hiram Abif
Psusennes' architect was called Heru'm Atif

King David was associated with a Star and a City
Psusennes was associated with a Star and a City

King David's capital was Zion
Psusennes' capital was Zoan



The question is, therefore, is the big cover-up not the possibility that King David was fictional, but the surprising possibility that he and the rest of the United Monarchy were Egyptian.


** (uniting Upper and Lower Egypt)

*** The star glyph is often translated as Seba, but it can also be Duad.



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Duvduv

I just love all this speculation clothed in certainty as to this or that was "how it was." Why don't people just admit they are speculating and relying on totally unproven assumptions based on their own values and biases? And based on FAITH. Maybe it isn't "kosher," but it's correct to do so.

ralfellis

Since I am an Atheist, in what way is this based upon FAITH??


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outhouse

Why were proto Israelites around 1200 BC not worshipping Egyptian deities?


Why were they worshipping Canaanite and Mesopotamian deities?


Some state they worshipped Shamash, that is not a Egyptian deity.



We see Israelites worshipping a few other cultures deities, but one thing is missing, Egyptian deities of any kind.

spin

ralfellis has turned on his nonsense machine again....
Aah, well, the "shepherd's crook" glyph actually means "ruler", so it's no surprise to find it within the cartouche of Tutankhamun, along with the signs for upper and lower Egypt, or within the cartouche of Amenhotep III, along with the glyph for Thebes ("waset"). The crook is found in all periods of Egyptian history from pre-dynastic through to the late period. It is a symbol of royal power.

Given all the stupid rubbish you've posted here, it is audacious that you should say to anyone: "Why not just admit that you were wrong", especially when connected with "the Hyksos and the Israelites are the same people". The expulsion Hyksos can be fairly securely dated to before 1500 BCE. Raamses (Pi-Rameses, Per-Rameses) was not built until the time of Ramses II, while Pithom dates to Necho II (see Redford, Egypt, Canaan & Israel, 1992 p.451). Such dating indications force the Israelites later than the time of the Hyksos. Why not just admit that you were wrong?

Convenient Judaic mistranslation, conveniently mistranslated for ralfellis to come along and get right. This convenience helps ralfellis create another crock of nonsense.

Name twiddling strikes again. Well, Zion looks vaguely like Zoan, doesn't it? I mean it does in that they start and end the same in English and one of the vowels in between is the same. Perhaps the Jews confused Zoan with Zion or perhaps it was another convenient Judaic mistranslation.

In fact, Finkelstein et al have shown that the same material culture can be traced in Israel layer after layer for 900 years from around 1500 BCE to ~600 BCE. No, obviously Finkelstein was not looking in the wrong place, but ralfellis has a silly theory, so Finkelstein must be wrong.

More name twiddling. You were shown to be manipulative and totally wrong with your fuckover of the 21st dynasty, adding bits and removing bits and generally displaying a total ineptness with the material.

Of course. We are now reheating the blather that was shown not so long ago to be baseless. Shame on you ralfellis for continuing this utter drivel.

Of course.

One would guess by now that ralfellis needs a basic course in history.

The name was Maat-ka-re Mut-em-hat (Mut, being a deity). You are once again changing names to suit your fantasy.

Tamar is mentioned 22 times in the bible. Where exactly is she called "Machah Tamar"?

The name of this person is rendered as Wen-djeba-en-Djed. Can anyone see any similarity between this name and that of Joab??? Yet again, ralfellis represents a name in a way to look like another.

Hiram "of course" was not an architect. He was the king of Tyre. He is mentioned 20 times in the bible. Where exactly is he called "Hiram Abif"?

As to "Heru'm Atif", it seems unrecognizable. The closest I can find is Haremsaf, given as chief of works under Shoshenq I. (Kitchen p.301) Reference to "Heru'm Atif" please.

Deep.

Note the difference: צען ציון.

The big cover-up seems to be ralfellis's manipulation again and again and again. He present's stuff as factual that upon examination turns out to be touched up, changed, added to and otherwise obfuscated.

ralfellis

Your replies are all of the 'not possible' or 'I don't believe you' variety. So is it worth me refuting someone who 'Will Not See'?

Probably not, but I will give just one refutation, just so readers can see that your many objections are baseless.

So where is Hiram called 'Abif'? Actually, this initially comes from Masonic lore, where the primary hero of Masonry was called Hiram Abif. Hiram Abif was King Solomon's architect, which is why Masonry is all about architecture.

http://www.masonicdictionary.com/hiram.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Abiff

But this name was originally derived from biblical sources, where it says"


And Solomon sent to Huram the king of Tyre, saying, As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him an house to dwell therein, even so deal with me. 2Ch 2:3

And now I have sent a cunning man, endued with understanding, of Huram my father’s. The son of a woman of the daughters of Dan, and his father was a man of Tyre, skilful to work in gold, and in silver, in brass, in iron, in stone, and in timber, in purple, in blue, and in fine linen, and in crimson; also to grave any manner of graving, and to find out every device which shall be put to him, with thy cunning men, and with the cunning men of my lord David thy father. 2Chr 2:13-14


Note that the king and the architect have the same name, Huram (or Hiram). Although it may be that the king and the architect were one and the same person. Theologian Adam Clarke says of this name:

His name appears to have been Hiram, or Hiram Abi:

The Abi comes from 'my father's' which does not make a lot of sense, and so the underlying name is Hiram Abi.

However, this name does make sense if you read it in the Egyptian. The 'Abif' suffix then becomes 'Atif" in Egyptian, meaning 'father' (just as it does in the Aramaic). Thus the Masonic and Biblical explanations merge here, with the one saying it means 'father's' (Hebrew Abi) and the other saying it was pronounced Abif (Atif), the Egyptian version).


So yes, Hiram Abi(f) was an architect, and his title included Abif (Atif) just as Masonic lore and Egyptian history states.


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spin

ralfellis, you did not provide a recognizable form for the name you represent as "Heru'm Atif". You needed to clarify this: is this person Haremsaf, the chief of works for Shoshenq I? If not, how do egyptological sources represent the name?

My replies try to deal with evidence, which you lack. But the reason for this lack as we will see is that you don't seem to understand what constitutes evidence.

In other words you haven't got a single primary source for "Hiram Abif". This is more of your total rubbish. The word "abi" is Hebrew for "my father", often used as a sign of respect. When, in 1 Sam 19:2 & 23:17, David says "Saul, my father" (שאול אבי), should that be corrected to "Saul Abif" or is it only a one off thing, so you can construct your desired form of "Hiram Abif"??

What you have is another of your marvelous word mishmashes, relying on--of all sources--bloody masonic claptrap. Your stuff is so worthless--repeatedly shown to be so--that you should seek help to understand what a reasonable argument requires in the way of evidence, as you don't seem to have a clear idea what constitutes evidence.

Twiddling with the appearance of words shows that you don't understand the necessary philology required to substantiate linguistic based arguments. You have manipulated nearly every word that you have presented here as an attempt at evidence, showing that not one of your equivalences has any value.

However, I don't see that you will change your modus operandi and I would advise the forum to consider your efforts here as purely agenda-driven.

ralfellis

Eh? You don't understand do you.

Firstly, the Tanakh IS a Primary Source.

Secondly, if you read the name Thuthmose, you don't pronounce this as Thuth Son Of, you say Thuthmose.

Or the name MacDonald is not pronounced as Donald Son Of.

Or the name O'Leary is not pronounced as Leary my Father.

Likewise with Hiram Abif. You don't pronounce this as Hiram my Father, it is Hiram Abif (just as it is always pronounced in Masonry).


I think you forget that this is an Egyptian name, where it makes more sense. The name really means 'Horus was my Father'. So the name Heru-m-atif is much the same as saying Heru-moses.


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Zwaarddijk

removed

spin

:hysterical:

Certainly not for what you claim: "Hiram Abif". You have no primary text for the form "Abif".

Utter rubbish. You are totally without any foundation for the form "Hiram Atif", so your attempted argument is just plain old

:horsecrap:

There is no "f" at the end of the Hebrew text, no matter how hard you ignore it. The text is plain, when it says "Hiram, my father", as it is elsewhere when it says "Saul, my father" (not, "Saul Abif") and again, 1 Kgs 2:24 et al., "David, my father" (not, "David Abif") This is ordinary Hebrew. "Abif" is just plain ignorant rubbish, notwithstanding the masonic connection.

This is just you repeating the same unfounded nonsense.

You still haven't provided a scholarly source for this "Heru'm Atif" or "Heru-m-atif". I am waiting to see what lies behind your manipulation here.