Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-04-2008, 03:45 PM

Acharya cites Plutarch. I can't locate her exact source, but this is from On Isis and Osiris

Quote:

LXV. In this way we shall also meet those common and trivial stories of people whether to identify the legends concerning these deities with the seasonable changes of the atmosphere, or with the growth, sowings, and ploughings of the grain; and who say that Osiris is then buried when the sown grain is hidden in the ground, and that he comes to life and shows himself again when there is a beginning of sprouting; wherefore Isis perceiving that she is pregnant, ties an amulet round her neck on the 6th of the first quarter of the month Phaophi, and that Harpocrates is born about the winter solstice, unfinished and infant-like in the plants that flower early and spring up early, for which reason they offer to him first fruits of growing lentiles, and they celebrate her being brought to bed after the vernal equinox.

This is from Acharya's Companion Guide to the Zeitgeist:

Quote:

In this regard, it has been the frequent contention of writers since antiquity that the Egyptians likewise celebrated the birth of the sun at the winter solstice, a logical conclusion, considering the reverence with which the sun was held in Egypt. Concerning this cycle in Egypt, in "Isis and Osiris" (ch. 65), Plutarch remarked that Horus—or "Harpocrates," his Greek name—was "born about the winter solstice, unfinished and infant-like..."4 A couple of centuries after Plutarch, in his Saturnalia (I, XVIII:10), ancient Latin writer of the fourth century Macrobius also reported on this annual Egyptian "Christmas" celebration:

…at the winter solstice the sun would seem to be a little child, like that which the Egyptians bring forth from a shrine on an appointed day, since the day is then at its shortest and the god is accordingly shown as a tiny infant.5

....

4 King, 56; cf. Babbitt, 153.
5 Macrobius/Davies, 129. The original Latin of this paragraph in Macrobius is: "…ut parvulus videatur hiemali solstitio, qualem Aegyptii proferunt ex adyto die certa, quod tunc brevissimo die veluti parvus et infans videatur…"

crispy · 02-04-2008, 03:48 PM

I have read only the two first lines in this thread

BUT isnt Chris Crocker this guy?

And the real instructor of

this guy?

Newfie · 02-20-2008, 02:29 PM

I’m skimming through Tom Harpur’s The Pagan Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk) which makes the same claim that Jesus is Osiris / Horus, but I’ not very far into it and I already have serious doubts about this guy’s sources. In other words it feels like I’m reading crap. If anyone is familiar with this can they point me to a reliable book on Egyptian religion that backs up the similarities between Christianity and Egyptian myth? Quana!

Solitary Man · 02-20-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Normally, atheists have the intellectual high ground over Christians, which is the way it should be. When it comes to claims made by Acharya S, Christians have the intellectual advantage. Nizari, most of us here are already aware of how dismal the Acharya S claims are. I invite you to take your criticisms to the source--Acharya S and her core adherents--at her forum, Truth Be Known Nation, where you see an Emperor Palpatine Pope representing the attitude of that group.

I didn't think that Ms. Murdoch was an atheist?

schilling.klaus · 02-20-2008, 11:11 PM

Of course Jesus is the same as Osiris,
as Jesus is exactly the Logos of Hellenic philosophy,
and same is valid for Osiris,
as already correctly known by Plutarch.

Those who deny the identity of Jesus and Osiris
utterly fail to understand Christian origins
and can be safely ignored.

Klaus Schilling

Malachi151 · 02-21-2008, 03:05 AM

Agreed completely, and I view this whole issue as a major problem for the "Jesus Myth" camp, because basically at this point the Jesus Myth camp is being destroyed by horrible scholarship coming from "Jesus Mythers" and no one from within the JM camp is doing enough to stand up against this imposers, such as Acharya S and Crocker.

I started doing a review of Acharya's work, but then I got side tracked onto other projects. I ended up started a new political organization recently and that took time away from addressing these issues, plus Darwin Day came up and I focused on some Darwin stuff for a while.

Anyway, I have been contemplating creating an entire website devoted to vetting "Jesus Myth" claims and scholarship. The question is whether there would be enough support for it, because it would have to be a wiki style effort (though not purely a wiki) drawing on the resources of a team of people.

The idea would be a Jesus Myth website dedicated to simply reviewing the existing JM claims and books and websites, but this website would be a pro-JM website, or at least run by people who themselves believed in JM.

With problem with the JM stuff is that there is just too much crap out there, and the crap is now over powering the real facts. I've written several threads about this topic here, I've sent e-mails and letters to various people about this topic including Richard Carrier (who does correspond with me and also agrees) and Robert M Price (who doesn't reply), etc. I've sent several letters and articles to the Jesus Project run by CFI, and I haven't heard anything back from them either.

So at this point I'm not sure what to do about it. I'd like to see this happen, but I don't have the time to do what really needs to be done. I could create the website and administer the content and create "some" content, but there is no way I could even do 10% of what needs to be done in terms of content and reviews, etc.

Basically, what needs to be setup is a peer review system for JM claims run by a peer group of JM "scholars" and people with reasonable objectivity, which of course I would include myself in that group, which may itself be unfair.

That's what we need, and I'd like to do it, but right now I'm running 2 major websites, plus a few others, and have lots of other stuff going on with work and family, plus various local organizations, atheist groups, humanist groups, etc.

One other thing I am doing is that I'm going to be giving some presentations on this topic at some upcoming SkeptiCamps: http://barcamp.org/SkeptiCampColorado1

I'm going to do a presentation on the "Jesus Family Tomb" in March, and in August I'm going to do a presentation on "Jesus scholarship" in general that will address failings and misconceptions on all sides of the aisle. That presentation will take on both the traditional Christian camp and the Jesus Myth camp and talk about the fallacies that are perpetuated by both and try to get down to exactly what the facts are. I'm not even going to draw any conclusions or advocate my own views in that presentation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nizari

Among young people of the internet generation, there is this notion that Christianity is influenced by pagan religions. This idea was made popular by the movie Zeitgeist, by Chris Crocker. IN the movie, Crocker lays out numerous links between the idea of Christ as a savior and ancient pagan religions, namely Coptic and Hellenic religions.

Most of Crocker's documentary is influenced by a book called "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharya S. Crocker often quotes directly from the book, and all the ideas in the book are found in the documentary.

"The Christ Conspiracy" was a book based on the work of Col. James Churchward, who wrote numerous books and traveled extensively. Col. James Churchward's work focuses on the idea that human kind came from the same highly advanced super race called the Children of Mu. He theorized that there was a continent of Mu that sunk under the sea, like the story of Atlantis, and that Jesus Christ was on of the Children of Mu, a being with great power. Using his own brand of Astrology and history, Col. James Churchward established a link between all ancient religions in order to show that all divine traditions were offshoots of one original religion found on the continent of Mu.

In the Christ conspiracy, Acharya S. quotes and misquotes James Churchward in order to arrive at her own theory that all religions stem from the same superstition, particularly Christianity.

(the youtube video below was made by J Churchward's grandson in order to address the misquotations of Acharya S. in her book 'The Christ Conspiracy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeDplt0ISSw

Churchward's scholarship is not taken seriously. He has no material evidence to support his ideas, and his astrology and his history is mostly wrong, factually incorrect. Some accuse him of writing fiction but pretending it's real in order to sell books.

Acharya S. is even more guilty of scholarly mischief then Churchward is. She flagrantly takes Churchward himself out of context to prove her ideas, a blatant abuse of scholarly integrity. On top of this, Churchward himself, her main source of ideas, is not credible either.

An example of how bad this scholarship is. We will take one idea and examine it:

"Horus was the son of Osiris, born to the virgin Isis on December 25th, 3 kings followed a star in the east to find him. He had a somewhat shady childhood until around age 30 when he got baptized and began traveling around with his 12 apostles. He was later crucified and resurrected after 3 days."

Isis was never seen as a virgin. She was a god of magic, flesh (mortality) and fertility. She was the wife and sister of Osiris.

Horus was born to Osiris, but there is no tradition that has December 25th (the solstice) as his birthday.

There is no tradition in which Horus was ever killed, nor resurrected. Osiris was slain by Seth, or Set, and then Set was castrated by Horus in revenge. In some Hellenic mystery religions, Horus is seen as a sort of representation of the Spirit of Osiris, but these Hellenic Mystery religions come much later then Coptic Orthodox Horus myths, and still say nothing about apostles, virgins or December 25th.

Horus never had apostles. The word "apostle" comes from the Greek term that means "one sent out."

When Set killed Osiris, he cut him up into many peaces, and scattered the body parts all over the world. Isis, using her powers as a sorceress, traveled around for many years to find the scattered pieces so that she could unite his body again. When Osiris was united whole, the overlord god Ra gave him the gift of being overlord of the Underworld.

"Isis had Osiris' body returned to Egypt after his death; Set had retrieved the body of Osiris and dismembered it into 14 pieces which he scattered all over Egypt. Thus Isis went out to search for each piece which she then buried. This is why there are many tombs to Osiris. The only part she did not find in her search was the genitals of Osiris which were thrown into a river by Set. She fashioned a substitute penis after seeing the condition it was in once she had found it and proceeded to have intercourse with the dead Osiris which resulted in the conception of Horus the child."

Slammed.

Crowley · 02-21-2008, 10:45 AM

According to my understanding, Mithras, the Roman Mystery Religion, was associated with December 25. From what I recall, the Jesus story has much more in common with Mithras than Osiris/Horus, though even some of those connections are slim.

It would seem that the Catholic Church and Mithra worship do have a definite link, however. In fact, there are several icons of Mithra housed in cathedrals to this day. Which I do find odd...

The only connection I know of between Jesus and Horus is the iconography of Isis nursing baby Horus. It is reminiscent of images of Mary holding baby Jesus. As the Jewish culture had very little in the way of graven images and icons, it would be natural for early christians (whenever they occured) to borrow the basis of their icons from the surrounding culture. Images of Isis holding Horus can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

1stspock · 05-27-2008, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crispy

I have read only the two first lines in this thread

BUT isnt Chris Crocker this guy?

And the real instructor of

this guy?

LOL

Dave31 · 05-28-2008, 09:06 PM

This thread serves to demonstrate the severe rigid bias unnecessarily, against Acharya.

First of all, the original post is way over the top WRONG claiming that someone named "Crocker" created the Zeitgeist movie. It was Peter Joseph - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist,_the_Movie

nizari is right to mention that Acharya's work was a significant source for part 1 of Zeitgeist. However, claiming that her book "The Christ Conspiracy" was a book based on the work of Col. James Churchward is far removed from reality. I've never heard that one before (rolls eyes).

Also, to claim that Acharya "misquotes" J. Churchward is not accurate either. The quotes and citations are accurate. And out of the mere 13 citations (out of over 1,200 footnotes), only one had anything to do with Christianity.

I actually responded to this guy Jack Churchward, the great grandson video way back in Nov/Dec and my response was deleted. Why am I not surprised?

I simply pointed out that only one citation from James Churchward had anything to do with Christianity. The book "Christ Conspiracy" wasn't about J. Churchward, nor his beliefs, nor did Acharya insinuate that he subscribed to any of the theories reproduced in her book.

Jack Churchward is smearing and defaming Acharya with libelous charges accusing her of "hate speech" in his video. Jack may not be aware that he is instilling hatred of her and her work... where could that lead? He may also be using Acharya as a straw man to promote his great grandfathers books, which he probably owns the rights to now.

Jack clearly doesn't like Acharya's work. Maybe Jack could find a more legitimate way to promote his great grandfathers work rather than attacking an author who included his great grandpa in the bibliography. Seems a little bass-ackwards to me. Does Jack go around attacking everyone who mentions his great grandfather if they don't succumb to Jacks beliefs of his great grandfathers beliefs? Or, do they now need to get Jacks permission to mention him at all?

Col. James Churchward was considered a "crackpot" by many for his views on Atlantis and Mu, etc, Acharya attempted to give him some credibility on certain topics and this is the thanks she gets.

She may do a 2nd edition to "Christ Conspiracy" so, since Jack Churchward, the great grandson wants to complain so much about something so insignificant, she'll remove all of the references to James Churchward and then, he'll be completely forgotten about forever. How's that?

I can't help but notice how quick the raptors - Malachi151, ApostateAbe, Gibson and GakuseiDon couldn't wait to jump on "bash Acharya" wagon quick enough, regardless of the fact that the information was totally inaccurate. Smooth move guys.

* P.S. Acharya's new book "Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection" will be out soon and will address the Egyptian origins of Christianity.

Roger Pearse · 05-29-2008, 01:03 AM

This seems to be a very old thread, and I don't know if the original posters are around now.

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02-04-2008, 03:48 PM	#12
crispy Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 1,041	I have read only the two first lines in this thread BUT isnt Chris Crocker this guy? And the real instructor of this guy?

02-20-2008, 02:29 PM	#13
Newfie Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,457	I’m skimming through Tom Harpur’s The Pagan Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk) which makes the same claim that Jesus is Osiris / Horus, but I’ not very far into it and I already have serious doubts about this guy’s sources. In other words it feels like I’m reading crap. If anyone is familiar with this can they point me to a reliable book on Egyptian religion that backs up the similarities between Christianity and Egyptian myth? Quana!

02-20-2008, 11:11 PM	#15
schilling.klaus Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 267	Of course Jesus is the same as Osiris, as Jesus is exactly the Logos of Hellenic philosophy, and same is valid for Osiris, as already correctly known by Plutarch. Those who deny the identity of Jesus and Osiris utterly fail to understand Christian origins and can be safely ignored. Klaus Schilling

02-21-2008, 10:45 AM	#17
Crowley Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: GA Posts: 114	According to my understanding, Mithras, the Roman Mystery Religion, was associated with December 25. From what I recall, the Jesus story has much more in common with Mithras than Osiris/Horus, though even some of those connections are slim. It would seem that the Catholic Church and Mithra worship do have a definite link, however. In fact, there are several icons of Mithra housed in cathedrals to this day. Which I do find odd... The only connection I know of between Jesus and Horus is the iconography of Isis nursing baby Horus. It is reminiscent of images of Mary holding baby Jesus. As the Jewish culture had very little in the way of graven images and icons, it would be natural for early christians (whenever they occured) to borrow the basis of their icons from the surrounding culture. Images of Isis holding Horus can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

05-28-2008, 09:06 PM	#19
Dave31 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: USA Posts: 425	This thread serves to demonstrate the severe rigid bias unnecessarily, against Acharya. First of all, the original post is way over the top WRONG claiming that someone named "Crocker" created the Zeitgeist movie. It was Peter Joseph - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist,_the_Movie nizari is right to mention that Acharya's work was a significant source for part 1 of Zeitgeist. However, claiming that her book "The Christ Conspiracy" was a book based on the work of Col. James Churchward is far removed from reality. I've never heard that one before (rolls eyes). Also, to claim that Acharya "misquotes" J. Churchward is not accurate either. The quotes and citations are accurate. And out of the mere 13 citations (out of over 1,200 footnotes), only one had anything to do with Christianity. I actually responded to this guy Jack Churchward, the great grandson video way back in Nov/Dec and my response was deleted. Why am I not surprised? I simply pointed out that only one citation from James Churchward had anything to do with Christianity. The book "Christ Conspiracy" wasn't about J. Churchward, nor his beliefs, nor did Acharya insinuate that he subscribed to any of the theories reproduced in her book. Jack Churchward is smearing and defaming Acharya with libelous charges accusing her of "hate speech" in his video. Jack may not be aware that he is instilling hatred of her and her work... where could that lead? He may also be using Acharya as a straw man to promote his great grandfathers books, which he probably owns the rights to now. Jack clearly doesn't like Acharya's work. Maybe Jack could find a more legitimate way to promote his great grandfathers work rather than attacking an author who included his great grandpa in the bibliography. Seems a little bass-ackwards to me. Does Jack go around attacking everyone who mentions his great grandfather if they don't succumb to Jacks beliefs of his great grandfathers beliefs? Or, do they now need to get Jacks permission to mention him at all? Col. James Churchward was considered a "crackpot" by many for his views on Atlantis and Mu, etc, Acharya attempted to give him some credibility on certain topics and this is the thanks she gets. She may do a 2nd edition to "Christ Conspiracy" so, since Jack Churchward, the great grandson wants to complain so much about something so insignificant, she'll remove all of the references to James Churchward and then, he'll be completely forgotten about forever. How's that? I can't help but notice how quick the raptors - Malachi151, ApostateAbe, Gibson and GakuseiDon couldn't wait to jump on "bash Acharya" wagon quick enough, regardless of the fact that the information was totally inaccurate. Smooth move guys. * P.S. Acharya's new book "Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection" will be out soon and will address the Egyptian origins of Christianity.

05-29-2008, 01:03 AM	#20
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	This seems to be a very old thread, and I don't know if the original posters are around now.

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