Sauron

Then why are you having such a hard time demonstrating this point of view you hold, lee? If the objection were baseless, then it should be child's play to dispatch it. Yet all you've offered is another bible verse along with your interpretation.

Congratulations on missing the point of Dlx2's post.

Lee, you've already admitted that you are not acquainted with Hebrew.

The text is clear about the earth being formed before the sun, not after. Yet in order to reconcile the obvioius mistake here, you twist the words in genesis to avoid admitting an error in the text.

Wasn't it you complaining earlier about people who can't seem to admit when the other side is right? Tsk, tsk....

Except that:

1. genesis contains zero observations - only religious claims, lacking any supporting evidence;

2. the actual scientific observations on the origin of land, sea, and the rise of life on earth have at least a half-dozen important differences with the bronze-age claims in genesis.

The problem, of course, is that no matter how much you twist and bend the text, the order of creation is genesis is incorrect, compared to what the scientific evidence shows us. Nothing you have provided so far reconciles this problem.


Incorrect. It is not a prediction, it is a claim. Until you get the difference cleared up in your mind, you will continue to make this mistake.

Probably because you are trying to get people to accept your *claims* as though they were predictions. They are not the same thing, nor will they ever be. So when people ask you for bonified predictions, they aren't going to waste time refuting third-rate claims that you are trying to substitute for the real thing.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Lee Merrill: No matter how long you spend debating in this thread, you will still have the thread on Bible contradictions to deal with. Not only that, but you will still have a host of scientific issues to deal with, not the least of which are the global flood and the fossil record. Even some evangelical Christian geologists have stated that a global flood did not occur.

It is a virtual given that a rational God would not inspire the writing of texts that invite dissent. The story of the events at the tomb is a good example. Would you have people believe that the story could not have been written so as to discourgage dissent?

At any rate, since you are an inerrantist, and always refuse to defend it even though it is the foundation for your beliefs, you do not have any credibility at all.

Even if intelligent design exists, so what? All that that would mean is that an unknown being created the universe.

lee_merrill

So unless I have answered every question in this forum, I haven't answered any of them? But let's deal with the question at hand here, not every other thread with a Bible question.

How many scientific issues constitute one host? But I do discuss such, and don't hold to a global flood at this point, nor do I dispute fossils, and their records.

Um, who gave that? If God's presence was unavoidable and undeniable, some would no doubt object, and say they would have liked to have a choice to make there, and evidence to evaluate. "IT is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up" (C.S. Lewis)

Certainly that is as far as ID can bring the conclusion, agreed...

Johnny Skeptic

Good, we agree that even if intelligent design is true, that does not nearly come close to making a good case that the Bible is true, and that you have not even come close to getting to first base if the desired goal is to get a home run. Thank you very much.

Whenever you debate, you NEVER get to the NEXT STEP if you were to win the debate. For some strange reason you assume that if you discredit evolution you have accomplished something of importance. Billions of non-Christian thiests and deists already believe in intelligent design, and tens of millions or hundreds of millions of agnostics already believe that intelligent design is reasonably possible.

Johnny Skeptic

How about just one contradiction? One Scripture says that God never tempts anyone. Another Scripture says that God tempted Abraham. If that is not a contradiction, what is? If there were contradictions in the Bible, will you please give us a hypothetical example of what a contradiction might be?

Why do you ask people to believe that there are not any contradictions in the Bible when it is apparent to anyone who has basic reading comprehension skills that in many cases, the words are not written in ways that discourage dissent?

Why would a God who indiscriminately injures and murders people with hurricanes want to provide Christians with inerrant texts? The most important debate topic is the character of God. You tried debating that topic with me last year at another forum, and you quit like you always do when you got into trouble. You have been proven wrong many times at these forums, including in debates about the Tyre prophecy and the Babylon prophecy. That would be easy for anyone to verify who wants to take the time to study your posts.

As long as the only person that you ever convince is yourself, which appears to be the case at the IIDB, that if fine with me. No rational person would assume that the Bible was written with the intent to make it as simple and easy to understand as possible, which morally and fairly surely should have been the case if heaven and hell are actually at stake. To require faith for anything except for identity is immoral and unnecessary towards the achievement of worthy, just, and fair goals. Faith is a necessary and quite convenient requirement for all religions.

lee_merrill

Certainly let's just check what is true, it's great if there is any true statement, and people sign up for it.

But this word in Hebrew (nasah) doesn't actually have the meaning of tempt to evil, it can mean "1. (put someone to the) test, give experience to, exercise, train someone, try out something; — 2. try, give a trial." (Holladay), or "test, try, prove, tempt, assay, put to the proof, put to the test" (TWOT), it also has a literal meaning of "lift up."

The Greek word "God does not tempt" does include the meaning of tempt to evil, but that is a different language.

So this apparent contradiction reflects the dilemma of the translators, where they may need to pick an English word which has additional meanings other than the Hebrew or Greek, or they might have to pick the same English word for different words in various languages, and you can get unintended conflicts like this.

Here are other Hebrew uses of this word in the Bible:

1 Samuel 17:39 Then David said to Saul, "I cannot go with these, for I have not tested [nasah] them."

Psalm 4:6 There are many who say, "Who will show us some good? Lift up [nasah] the light of your face upon us, O Lord!"

Isaiah 10:29 Ramah trembles; Gibeah of Saul flees [nasah].

Exodus 20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test [nasah] you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

Sauron

However, the act in question was Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac. Blood sacrifice of another human being is a sin. It was one of the abominations of the surrounding Canaanites that the Israelites were told was forbidden to them.

So in that context, the act is evil, so the translation "tempt" is appropriate.

To summarize:

1. The translation is correct, given the context.

2. The act in question (sacrifice of Isaac) does not correspond favorably to the claims about the OT god, and presents a contradiction between the stated character and the written record.

Your move.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Lee Merrill: In your opinion, did God create dinosaurs long before he created Adam and Eve, or about the same time that he created Adam and Eve?

What do you believe God's main purpose was in inspring the Bible? What was he mainly trying to accomplish?

lee_merrill

I believe dinos were long before Adam, yes, but specially created, I don't know, I'm not sure.

To reveal himself, his deeds and his nature, and to give profitable instruction on how to live, and what to avoid.

Johnny Skeptic

If God created dinosaurs long before he created Adam, did some of them kill and eat each other?

May I ask why anyone should believe anything that is in the book of Genesis? None of it is verifiable by any means except for faith.

If Genesis depends upon other Scriptures for credibility, what are some of those other Scriptures?