Gamera

You'd have a point if the NT were in the comic book genre (and a heck of a graphic novel it would have made!). But no such genre existed at the time.

Applying the genres we know about from the time, authors didn't appear to consciously mix fictional and nonfictional characters in any genre we know about. So your argument is based on the claim that the NT texts are sui generis and represent the creation of a genre that didn't exist before. I think that's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof, which you haven't provided.

On their face, the gospels appear to be and present themselves as historical texts.

Gamera

Thanks. It supports what I suggested that the burial of Jesus' body by a purported Joseph would not have been seen as an extraordinary event. That doesn't prove Joseph's existence, but it does mean that no extraordinary evidence is required to conclude that the gospel account happened.

"Thus, though the Gospels make it appear as though Joseph of Arimathea was winning some special privilege for Jesus, there is in fact no reason to suppose he was doing anything out of the ordinary for a Jew in Jerusalem. Approaching the Roman prefect and asking for the bodies of the condemned before sunset may have been a routine courtesy (since Pilate would not expect Jesus to have died already). For Pilate to have forced a corpse to remain up against one of the most sacred of Jewish laws could not have failed to result in the sort of suicidal demonstration that followed his placing of the standards within the city walls. At the very least, Jewish outrage at this crime (and it would be a crime even to the Romans, violating the Augustan law cited above) could hardly have escaped record. And as Pilate acquiesced in the case of the standards, he would just as likely acquiesce in the treatment of a condemned corpse, since he would hardly want to irk the fanatical Jews on a daily basis as the law was continually and arrogantly violated in front of them.

It should also not be regarded as unusual that Joseph seeks the body of Jesus: Mark makes it clear that no family relations of Jesus are in the city at the time of the crucifixion, leaving it to the Sanhedrin to ensure the commandments of God were not violated."

darstec

They didn't really mix fictional and nonfictional characters in any genre (and you should not have said "we" know about but rather "what you Gamera" know about)? Then I suppose the Phoenix is real and that Jonah really did live in a big fish for three days and three nights?

And I suppose the author of the gospel according to Luke, when he had Joshua related the story of the rich man, dressed in purple, while in Hades begged Lazarus, the former beggar, for a drop of water, really believed both characters were non fictional? How did the author know what conversation went on in Hades? Or do you suppose that the authors of the time really did mix fictional and non fictional characters in the genre?

Ben C Smith

Can this statement stand as written? The Greek novelists appear to have written historical figures into their fictional works, at least as minor characters. Callirhoe is, IIRC, the daughter of Hermocrates of Syracuse, an historical character.

Ben.

Unbeliever

I find it interesting that only at the very beginning and the very end of Jesus's life does a "Joseph" enter into the story. I don't know what significance this may have, though, if any.

Charles Wilson

I can tell you mine. BTW, haven't posted in way too long here - Hello everyone.

The "Pilate" of the gospels is manufactured completely. The Jesus stories were written in 8 - 12 CE, long before Pilate came on the scene. The Jesus Death Stories were the first stories. When the Priestly group comes back in 8 - 12 CE, they write of the Slaughter and rewrite the endings.

You can find some of this stuff here and on my site jesus-archelaus.org .

Recently, I've found the "Epistula Apostolorum" (see Peter Kirby's site, "Early Christian Writngs) and the author states up front that "Concerning whom we testify that the Lord is he who was crucified by Pontius Pilate and Archelaus between the two thieves (and with them he was taken down from the tree of the cross, Eth.), and was buried in a place which is called the place of a skull (Kranion)." (Section 9)

Now I know that every single one of the ancient texts were forgeries, written in a Sanitarium in Newark in 1928 by Mystical Genealogists. OK, OK. Nonetheless, here is at least one other text beside Josephus that lists Archelaus in his proper mode.

"Pilate" existed all right but any resemblance between the Pilate of the Gospels and the Pilate of Roman Rule fame is strictly coincidental. The Jesus stories were time shifted thirty years to hide the many historical alignments.

Charles Wilson

Charles Wilson

I had to post before I finished reading the other threads ( I STILL haven't done that.) and I caught your post above mine.

Note that if the "Death Stories" are the first stories, Joseph takes the Body of Jesus (Jairus/Lazarus actually). The Jesus Group is going into exile into Galilee for twelve years. Then, Joseph, with a pregnant Mary ( => Judah, pregnant with a rebirth of The Plan) comes back from Galilee to attempt to rouse the populace one more time. Now go and read the early Mark: "We know who you are, you are god's Holy one!": The people remember who Jesus is and more importantly, what happened. Concerning Jairus' Daughter: "The girl is not dead, she is merely sleeping...": The Plan lives. The "Woman with the Twelve Year Issue of Blood": Who touched my clothes (=> The Priesthood)?, etc. (And who was the "Gardener"?)

Yes, it is interesting. And meaningful once the stories are placed back into their more original order.

Charles

JoeWallack

Participally 4.4th Street

JW:

"Mark" 15:43

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...er=15&verse=43

"ἐλθὼν Ἰωσὴφ ὁ ἀπὸ Ἁριμαθαίας εὐσχήμων βουλευτής ὃς καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν προσδεχόμενος τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ τολμήσας εἰσῆλθεν πρὸς τὸν �*ιλᾶτον καὶ ᾐτήσατο τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ"

"there came Joseph of Arimathaea, a councillor of honorable estate, who also himself was looking for the kingdom of God; and he boldly went in unto Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. (ASV)"


JW:
We are looking for the meaning of that word "boldly" (τολμήσας):

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...g%2C0031%2C002

A. tolmêis Theoc.5.35 : fut. tolmêsô S.El. 471 , Dor. -a_sô Theoc.14.67 : pf. tetolmêka A.Pr. 333 , Dor. -a_ka Pi.P.5.117 :--Med., Lys.Oxy.1606.420 (Bodl. Quarterly Record 5 (1928).303):--undertake, take heart either to do or bear anything terrible or difficult:

1. mostly abs., dare, endure, submit (v. Tlaô), eni phresi thumos etolma Il.10.232 ; su d' (sc. kradiê) etolmas Od. 20.20 ; oude hoi hippoi tolmôn Il.12.51 ; egô d' etolmês' A.Pr.237 , etc.; hai sumphorai tous hêsuchious tolman biazontai Antipho 3.2.1 ; t. kai eklogizesthai Th.2.40 ; tolmôntes andres ib.43, cf. S.Tr.583; chrê tolman . . en algesi keimenon andra Thgn.555 ; tolma kakoisin Id.355 , 1029; tolma S.Ph.82 ; tolmêson ib.481: in part., tolmêsas . . parestê he took courage and . . , Plu.Cam.22, cf. Ev.Marc.15.43.


JW:
Sounds like "Mark" is attributing Courage based on Faith to Joseph. And what does "Mark" have to say about the person nearest to this Verse:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_15:44

"And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead." (ASV)


JW:
Pilate Marvelled (amazed/surprised) because he had Doubt. Jesus, what a wonderful Ironic Contrast, the one who has Doubt and therefore Fear wants to get rid of Jesus and the one who has Faith and therefore Courage wants to accept Jesus. Hallelulah.

And who else in "Mark's" Gospel has Fear? Someone, anyone?

Dr. Gibson: Earl Doherty! Er, I mean, The Demons!

JW:
That's right. Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't have been so tough on you.

"Matthew" and "Luke" exorcised the offending word presumably because it didn't sound Historical (too Ironically Contrived). As my famous relative Caipfuss said "What more evidence do we need?".

Understand Dear Reader?



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

yalla

Gamera,
So far so good but note that there is a response to Carrier [and a response to that in turn].
Also, somewhere out there in the ether is another [learned] article which states that alleged JC would have inevitably ended up in the graveyard and not a tomb.
I'm trying to track it down.
So the issue is not fully settled...yet.
And further note, Carrier's essay presumes an HJ and gospel veracity and accuracy...I hope that is an accurate observation of mine.
Furthermore, if Joe has been invented to fulfil a literary purpose and Pilate has been co-opted in a manner unlike that which we know of about him personally from Philo and Josephus and from the behaviour of Prefects generally [not exactly in the habit of releasing seditious prisoners]and thus is a de facto fictional character, then the plausibility of the entire scenario is severely compromised.
It is, IMO, extremely suspicious that both these guys act in a manner that suits the needs of the author's plot and in the one case where we do have some historical knowledge [Pilate] that manner of behaviour, a la "Mark", is not plausible.
A suspicion that grows as later gospellers further embellish these guys, and others [eg the 2 criminals], to meet further plot needs.
Plastic characters all.
The believing thief and the unbelieving thief, the casting of lots for the robe to satisfy prophecy fulfilment, to give 2 examples.
I'll return if I find the other learned article which was cited here in IIDB a fair time ago.
cheers
yalla

Edit...psssst JW
Does the scene with the 2 thieves complement your point above?

Doug Shaver

I would not say that of anyone who actually existed, but we're talking semantics there.

Your point seems to be that Pilate never did what the gospels say he did and never acted the way they show him acting. I quite agree with that.