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Old 01-05-2007, 06:49 AM   #191
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But why can't it mean what it says?
It can. But it does not say much. It only says that Jesus had a home in Capernaum. That home may have been an owned house, or it may have been rented, or it may have belonged to someone else (like Peter) who offered him space. I am not committed to any one of these options, simply because we are not explicitly told.

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Old 01-05-2007, 07:19 AM   #192
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It can. But it does not say much. It only says that Jesus had a home in Capernaum. That home may have been an owned house, or it may have been rented, or it may have belonged to someone else (like Peter) who offered him space. I am not committed to any one of these options, simply because we are not explicitly told.
And that's a grave flaw in your approach to the narrative. You need to mystify the text for some reason. When someone states something in a narrative, you usually take it at its simplest, until forced to see that that meaning is not appropriate. That's how meaning works when dealing with multiple possibilities of significance. You start with the most obvious and go on to others when you have to. Nothing in Mark suggests any of your alternatives, which suggests the simplest is correct.


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Old 01-05-2007, 07:51 AM   #193
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And that's a grave flaw in your approach to the narrative. You need to mystify the text for some reason. When someone states something in a narrative, you usually take it at its simplest, until forced to see that that meaning is not appropriate. That's how meaning works when dealing with multiple possibilities of significance. You start with the most obvious and go on to others when you have to. Nothing in Mark suggests any of your alternatives, which suggests the simplest is correct.
Were it not that the very first house Jesus enters in Capernaum is that of Peter, I would not even be thinking in terms of some other house. It is not mystifying the narrative to see a possible connection between the oikos of Peter and the oikos into which Jesus pops every so often. Again, I am not committed to that option. But to limit the phrase at home down so far that it cannot refer to a house in which I live, but do not own, is just too much.

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Old 01-05-2007, 09:11 AM   #194
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Were it not that the very first house Jesus enters in Capernaum is that of Peter, I would not even be thinking in terms of some other house. It is not mystifying the narrative to see a possible connection between the oikos of Peter and the oikos into which Jesus pops every so often. Again, I am not committed to that option. But to limit the phrase at home down so far that it cannot refer to a house in which I live, but do not own, is just too much.
Umm, you seem to be struggling with this no-boner. We use "home" when dealing with the house of a specific person. The same significance is found in the idiomatic usages around oikos, such as eis oikon. You are usually not at home in someone else's house, unless some explanation places you as living there. It doesn't matter how many times you throw the word oikos around by itself, it doesn't invoke the notion of home unless it fits the idiomatic usages. Notice the way that Matt moves Jesus from Nazara to Capernaum. The writer felt it necessary to show that move in his narrative, so that Jesus didn't just pop up at home in Capernaum. One would expect it in Mark if Jesus moved to Capernaum, rather than his just being at home there.


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Old 01-05-2007, 09:11 AM   #195
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Why must 21st century residence conventions in North America apply in first-century Palestine?
Did you make that straw man all by yourself?
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:27 AM   #196
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That is not what I meant. I meant if Q contains the portions that are assigned to Q (at any level), since there is always room from debate on whether some passages might not have come from some other source besides Q.
Gotcha.

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In Greek a distinction between point of origination and present abode is easy to make, and I think Mark has made it. He calls Capernaum home (using οικος expressions) and the town in 6.1-6a the fatherland (πατρις), a word cognate with the Greek word for father.
Thank you for both understanding my point and providing a substantive response.

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There are many for whom point of origination and present abode would be the same place, of course (they simply stayed where they were reared). But the distinction seems quite clear in the case of Jesus.
That would appear to correspond with Mk 3:31-35.
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:38 AM   #197
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Umm, you seem to be struggling with this no-boner. We use "home" when dealing with the house of a specific person. The same significance is found in the idiomatic usages around oikos, such as eis oikon. You are usually not at home in someone else's house, unless some explanation places you as living there. It doesn't matter how many times you throw the word oikos around by itself, it doesn't invoke the notion of home unless it fits the idiomatic usages. Notice the way that Matt moves Jesus from Nazara to Capernaum. The writer felt it necessary to show that move in his narrative, so that Jesus didn't just pop up at home in Capernaum. One would expect it in Mark if Jesus moved to Capernaum, rather than his just being at home there.
Since it hardly matters to me for the sake of this debate whether Jesus was at home in his own shack in Capernaum or at home playing PS2 games on the living room floor with Peter while his mother-in-law served chips and dip, I will let this go. It is enough that Jesus has a home (of some kind) in Capernaum, as I readily agree.

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Old 01-05-2007, 10:02 AM   #198
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Did you make that straw man all by yourself?
No, I didn't.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:05 AM   #199
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When someone states something in a narrative, you usually take it at its simplest, until forced to see that that meaning is not appropriate. That's how meaning works when dealing with multiple possibilities of significance. You start with the most obvious and go on to others when you have to. Nothing in Mark suggests any of your alternatives, which suggests the simplest is correct.
The simplest? The simplest smoothly explains everything in the narrative. However, your interpretation does not explain why the writer does not say that Jesus was at home the first time he mentions Capernaum, provided that this town is supposed to be his hometown from the beginning.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:59 AM   #200
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That would appear to correspond with Mk 3:31-35.
I am not certain what you are saying corresponds to what. Do you see Mark 3.31-35 as saying that the family lived in the same town as Jesus was living?

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