gstafleu

That it works. Have a look at your screen and notice that you can read my communications to you. That's pretty good evidence for science being a "good" theory, I'd say.

Fine, present one and we'll talk.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

Yes, that would be an Arthur C Clarke type of miracle ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"). There is also the type of miracle where one agrees that something cannot be done according to science (building a perpetual motion machine, e.g.) but that it can be done as miracle. I suspect it is the latter type that we may be concerned with here.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

Possibly, which explains how science managed to overtake metaphysics. If it had been the other way around, that would have been a regressive move. Speaking of which:
Maybe, although if this is true we can probably make a valid Achilles-and-the-tortoise argument that we'll never know, as in that case there must be an infinite regress of causes, and this infinite regress in all likelihood does take infinite time to transgress (as opposed to that infinite progress that actually passes in one--or at most two--blinks of the eye). But then again, we could be part of a ring of turtles rather than standing on top of a stack of them. So there is still hope!

Gerard

Chili

Sure, and I celebrate this with you but we cannot ignore the many questions that arise by each 'uncovery,' as we should call it now, which then is why it is progressive in the end albeit from detour as if always behind the eight ball. This, then, is why I hold that metaphysics precede physics and science will always be an extraction from omniscience. Now please tell me if that would fit in the category of day-dreaming or do you agree with my notion of inspiration and revelation?

There is a place on top for everyone.

gstafleu

It might work, but so far the results have been meager, while science has zapped out from behind the eight ball and taken the world by storm. So from a point of pure utilitarianism I'm skeptical, but one never knows.

Gerard

Chili

Lucky for us we can still download stored entropy from the generative force in the heyday of Catholicism. At least we could until now but it looks as though this may soon come to an end some 500 years after the switch was thrown, which is about midway in our thousand year reign and logically correct.

DCHindley

In a way. Even physics is based on theory, not absolute laws. We may *call* them the "laws of physics" but they are really theoretical postulates. Newton's theories work as postulated most of the time, but in the BIG picture of cosmic phenomenon we do not always see the predicted results when, say, a star goes supernova or when we smash protons together with really powerful accelerators. So also mathematics. Remember "Theorems?" As far as most of us have observed, 2 + 2 always = 4, but mathematicians acknowledge that this may not *always* be true.

I think the problem goes back to this - all scientific explanations rely on observation of controlled experiments, and miracles just don't seem to happen under controlled experimental conditions (unless one counts discovery of black holes or unexpected subatomic particles as "miracles"). That being said, that doesn't mean they don't happen, only that science cannot explain them.

There is still a lot of wiggle room, though, in that accounts of "miracles" are essentially often naive "explanations" that attempt to rationalize observed phenomenon with what the observer "knows" to be true. The further back the account is recorded, the more naive the explanation. It also doesn't help that "miracle" can also serve as a metaphor to "explain" universal truths, such as in myth and other oral storytelling.

DCH

Ben C Smith

I completely agree that science (including physics) is based on theory (we have the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution, quantum theory, and so forth). It was the statement science is a theory that I was wondering about. (My question had nothing to do with law versus theory terminology.)

I think of science as a (collection of) method(s) which, when used appropriately, can turn an hypothesis into a theory.

Ben.

gstafleu

I think we have various uses of the word "science" here. What you refer to is, more strictly, the scientific method--but this is often just called "science." When I say that science is a theory, I refer to the collective of all scientific theories, this collective forming a new theory (like the theory of gravity and the theory of electromagnetism are part of the theory of physics, which is part of the theory we call science).

Gerard

Chili

Right and in the bible a theory (an ousia) is called a shepherd and we need 12 of those to come full circle in parousia which is not until we are bewildered by our knowledge and begin to wonder where these primary premisses came from that got us thus far. IOW we want to look into the heart of omniscience without knowing what we are looking in the form of what the Greeks called a first order enthymeme wherein the major is missing, which then is what created the unrest in Egypt (was it?) when Moses got the bright idea to part the waters and get the children of Israel out of there, who in effect were the proven benefits (sheep) of his own theories (extrapolations or ousiai) and thus Egypt was a state mind wherein Moses got lost among his very own riches (shepherds on the run) and sought to preserve his eidolons (images) instead of himself by parting the water (tied down knowlwedge) to get out of there.

As it turned out he got lost along with his riches that worked for him like filthy rags in a barren wasteland were nobody wanted them.

But for the comfort of my friend Gerard (who I really do not think was worried) should I add that the unanswered questions that emerge from each uncovery are first seen with the eye of the soul where they are retained for future inspiration but belong to the Pharaoh in Egypt for as long as they are not tied down in Israel, who so created the turmoil in the mind of the man they called Moses who obviously was not tithing (contemplating) his destiny while abroad and away from Israel that he so neglected (poor ark builder he was).

From a distance an argument can now be made that the Intelligent Design belongs to the tribe and is retained and maintained by its warriors from on a level that is high above the science that we are familiar with and this may just be where they say that miracles happen.