andy5

Well it's amazing really. I even worked as a preacher for awhile, and my family is all about it-no way they would ever change, I tried testing the waters earlier this summer and that became clear. They in fact did everything they could to show me how wrong that assumption would be, giving me their Christian books on the subject. For kicks I looked through one, where for example, it's way of dealing with the out of context prophecies was simply to say that it wasn't true-it hardly touched it. And that is the type of thing comforting these people. Anyway, if I go all the way with this it will tear my family apart, be very difficult and horrible for us all, if they find out the truth anyway, so probably also another reason my mind is so bent over backwards on this. That, as you say, is the power of a cult, one of sort or another.

J-D

It can be very tough. It wasn't for me, but there are a number of people who have posted here at one time or another about how tough it was for them. That sort of discussion, however, mostly doesn't go on in 'Biblical Criticism and History'. You might find it helpful to check out 'Secular Lifestyle' a bit, and perhaps post there too.

Johnny Skeptic

Regarding "through your seed all nations shall be blessed," how have the Jews blessed all nations? Today, most people in the world do not support Israel.

It is up to fundamentalist Christians to reasonably prove that God ever said anything to Abraham.

We can be certain that God did not make a land promise to Abraham because Jews have never occupied all of the land of Canaan as promised in Genesis 17:8. The verse says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Some Christians claim tht the promise was conditional upon good behavior, but there is not any credible evidence that such was the case. In addition, if the land promise was conditional, which didn't it state the conditions? Further, why would God have made a land promise if he knew that the Jews would never keep their part of the bargain?

Clouseau

Maybe you need a visit to the optician. Maybe.

Precisely the reverse is true, oddly.

Which he isn't, of course.

Isaac was imperfect, so would not have made a sensible sacrifice.

As predicted by Jesus.

Is that a problem?

Stephen T-B

"Isaac was imperfect, so would not have made a sensible sacrifice." (Clouseau)

And lucky for him he was, eh?

(What an extraordinary assertion. So every goat and sheep which had its throat cut so as to be a sacrifice to this blood-thirsty god had to be perfect?
Did the Jews have livestock shows, complete with judges who took careful measurements - only the Winner of the Class getting to be sacrificed? But suppose the animal had a hidden imperfection, what then?)

Clouseau

If that is intended as a serious comment, then it is far below serious notice. A basic grasp of theology is presumed here, and time will not be given to providing it.

Stephen T-B

I think I get the picture here:
the Jews' god got so fed up with being offered imperfect sheep and goats that out of shere exasperation it eventually decided to perform an unnatural act with a human female to produce a version of itself which would be perfect - and thus an acceptable sacrifice to itself.

(Why should I take this seriously? People who believe it do so in violation of everything that is natural.)

Clouseau

You don't have to. You can come and tell your attempted jokes here if you insist. Democracy is worth it.

Stephen T-B

Of course, if the Biblical story about Abrahama and Isaac really occurred, making jokes about it would be distasteful.
How horrible would that have been?
A father actually willing to slit his son's throat as a human sacrifice - what state of mind was he in? - and the son, tied to a make-shift altar and knowing that his own father is about to kill him.
It is a ghastly scenario.
The last-minute reprieve provides a happy ending, but then that's a classic ploy in fictional dramas.

Fact is, enough horrible things happen in the real world without this being one of them.

Equinox

Andy wrote:


Andy – Don’t be too worried, I’ve been there, and it works itself out if you plan things right.

We go through different stages in life, each with very different authority structures, different concerns, and most of all, different responsibilities. You are young. Right now, there is no need to make huge waves in the family – that could affect you and isn’t worth your trouble. Just keep quiet, learning and thinking freely on your own, and talking with friends, old and new. The wonderful thing is that you can finally be free of the fear of a hell that doesn’t exist! It took me a long time too, but it’s wonderful now, and every day is filled with joy looking at the glorious universe that I am a part of, not some separate creation or sadistic created plaything.

Soon, your life stage will shift dramatically. When you become independent, after or during college, you will be charge of your world, to make it as you like. It’s good to maintain contact with your family, and you’ll be able to do that even if you have different views. When in her upper 20’s, my sister announced (in our then all Catholic family) that she was converting to Jehovah’s Witnesses – there were some waves, but soon my parents realized that she was her own person, another adult, and they no longer controlled her life. When the rest of my siblings and I saw that, we said “Oh, yeah and by the way the rest of us kids are all atheists!” I’m not sure which was the bigger shock to my parents, but nowadays, we all have fun family gatherings, all love each other, and everything is fine, despite our very different religions.

You’ll want to be honest with yourself and your parents and siblings when you become independent. After all – you’ll have your own family before too long, and when that happens, your focus will (and must) shift towards them as your top priority. You don’t want to burden them with the same psychological junk that you are having to deal with now! That should start at your wedding or before - after all, it's YOUR wedding, not your parents showcase of their beliefs - don't let them control your family, your family's ceremonies, make your kids get baptized into their religion, etc. You’ll need to raise kids to be aware of the real world without unnecessary guilt over fantasies. You can put your wife and kids truly first, not second after some God or authority structure. I can say with confidence that if some bully ordered me to kill or even harm any one of my precious children, I have the moral clarity to tell him to jump in the lake – regardless of what I was threatened with. My moral priorities are clear, and they don’t include toadying to some pretend cosmic terrorist. You will craft your children whether you like it or not. It’s up to you to decide now how you want them to be. Do you want them to have to struggle out of the same cult you are struggling with now – or do you want them to own themselves from the start? I wish you the best of luck-

-Equinox (Jon)