joedad

I don't have Kieckhefer's Magic in the Middle Ages anymore and the search function doesn't seem to be working. But in the early centuries, magi and magic essentially came to be a disparaging label that applied to all of paganism. In this sense, this account of the magi would have served the christian cause quite nicely, interpolation or not.

Amaleq13

I agree but I'm not familiar with the specific arguments. It seems like it should be complicated enough to be interesting.

I think you could consider them to be attempts to "push back" the moment of "divine identity" from Mark's baptism to an immaculate conception. John, as usual, beats them all by offering a pre-existent Jesus!

But don't they remove the "too human" aspects of Mark's Jesus? You don't find theirs taking two tries to heal anybody, for example. They certainly aren't comfortable with Jesus going to a baptism to repent sins. By including a virgin birth, it seems to me they are actually increasing the divinity of Jesus rather than making him seem more human.

Did they deny a childhood as Marcion apparently did or did they only deny a virgin birth?

mike_decock

Why would they feel the need to "push back" that moment?

It's a strange dichotomy. Mk and Lk want Jesus to be fully human as well as fully divine. What kind of "sacrifice" is it if the crucifixion was just an "illusion"?

What exactly the gnostics believed is tough to pin down because their documents were destroyed and their beliefs were varied. I just think it hard to imagine that Marcion "made up" the idea that Jesus had no childhood ca 144CE for no apparent reason, especially if the birth narratives were already part of the tradition. It makes more sense if the "no birth" concept existed before the birth tradition became part of the story.

-Mike...

Amaleq13

Against "adoptionist" and/or pre-Marcion ideas?

Whether or not they are additions to Mt/Lk, they are additions to the story Mark tells. The specific goal of each appears to be to show that Jesus fulfilled the messianic expectation of a Bethlehem hometown but that is clearly not all that they had in mind. You don't need an immaculate conception, for example, to establish the birthplace.

Said the "Christian" to the "Gnostic".

Actually, this seems to me to be a legitimate question no matter how you choose to tell the story. How can it be considered a real sacrifice if Jesus' true identity is the pre-existent Son through whom the world was created? How can it be considered a real sacrifice if the ultimate result was a place at the right hand of God? The legitimacy of the sacrifice, IMHO, cannot be rationally defended. It must be accepted through faith.

I agree. Both Paul's gospel and Hebrews lend themselve quite easily to beliefs like Marcion's that Jesus had descended directly from heaven as an adult. If we assume that Marcion didn't make this up, himself, then we have to consider the possibility that the birth narratives are responses to such a pre-Marcion belief.

mike_decock

Well, if we take the obsession with blood sacrifices into consideration, an "illusion" is obviously insufficient. They need to establish that Jesus' sacrifice is "divine blood". It's a rationalization by faith .

That's what I'm thinking.

-Mike...

judge

I think it would be more accurate to say they were astronomers rather than astrologers...or were they giving daily readings for Librans as well

judge

Note that Daniel was the head of these "wisemen" during the Babylonian captivity

judge

The original writings indicate they were magoshi in Aramaic.

See here....
http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Mattich1.pdf

judge

I have found that looking to the Aramaic has helped with this stuff.
Jesus had two "qnome" a human one and a divine one.

The "trinity" is three qnome not three persons.

Unfortunately there is no word in English (or greek) for the Aramaic word qnome...

Amos

It doesn't matter much what they were called but if they came from the East where Eden was left behind and brought wisdom it is wrong to think that they brought jars of dirt from the garden "back home." (Notice that Balthasar was a bit of shady character and did not come from due East)

Epiphany is about realization and describes the grounds for metanoia. Whereas before Joseph was in pursuit of happiness along the road of power, wealth and beauty the arrival of divine wisdom into his conscious mind changed his pursuit of happiness towards faith hope and charity. These were the gifts he received and they were needed by him to get into heaven. He therefore called his apostles (his own eidetic images) to be his helpers which proves that sanity remained so Easter could and would follow (Epiphany is the first evidence of a virgin [from above] rebirth. To this Joyce said "reason must prevail."