Freethought & Rationalism Archive

steamer · 09-30-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Again, deer antlers (on species that have sharp antlers) are sufficiently sharp to inflict major injury or even to kill. Yet, generally, male deer don't kill each other. Why? Because doing so is not beneficial, and tends to be selected against.

I was convinced by your last post. I'm glad you posted this explanation anyway, because frankly I find this stuff just fascinating. In species that do kill each other, male lions for instance, the losing male probably will never mate again anyway. So it makes sense to me, it's just not always as simple an explanation as the biggest most dangerous creature wins the gene lottery.

theyeti · 09-30-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Thus, non-lethality in mating rituals can be a survival advantage for a species, and thus may be (has been) "naturally selected".

It's important to point out that it isn't survival of the species that is being selected for, it's survial of the individuals who express the given behavior. Fighting to the death isn't good for the individuals involved, since even the winner is likely to suffer serious wounds and would be unlikely to win a second round with another rival. That's why most species have evolved ritualistic fights where one combatant backs down in a submissive pose, while the other flashes a dominance display, but otherwise leaves the loser alone. It's not to the advantage of the winner to try to kill the loser, since doing so would be dangerous and is completely uncessary.

This is something that we humans do as well. We call it sports.

theyeti

Mageth · 09-30-2005, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theyeti

It's important to point out that it isn't survival of the species that is being selected for, it's survial of the individuals who express the given behavior. Fighting to the death isn't good for the individuals involved, since even the winner is likely to suffer serious wounds and would be unlikely to win a second round with another rival. That's why most species have evolved ritualistic fights where one combatant backs down in a submissive pose, while the other flashes a dominance display, but otherwise leaves the loser alone. It's not to the advantage of the winner to try to kill the loser, since doing so would be dangerous and is completely uncessary.

This is something that we humans do as well. We call it sports.

theyeti

Indeed. Thanks for the clarification.

David B · 09-30-2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

When deer fight, they generally don't gore each other, though it happens from time to time. Again, note that the intent is not to kill or injure, but to establish dominance. Deer jousts are typically head-to-head shoving matches, not lethal gore-fests.

But, suppose that, in one group of of a species of deer, for some reason sharpness/lethality was selected for, either in the form of the antlers or in the method of fighting (they fought with the intent to injure/kill), or both. In another group, it was not.

The male of the lethal deer would tend to kill each other off at a higher rate, no? And thus, probably, have fewer offspring.

Thus, non-lethality in mating rituals can be a survival advantage for a species, and thus may be (has been) "naturally selected".

Let's say that in one group of deer lethality is favoured. Then up and coming bucks, fighting their first season, would be more likely to be killed compared with another, less lethal, group of deer.

It would be interesting to see how many male deer win their fights in the first season that they could breed. Not many, I'd think. Experience, bulk, antler size come into play. I surmise. I wonder if anyone's done a thesis on that sort of thing.

Populations that tend to wipe out the younger generation wouldn't seem to have much of a future, compared with a nearby population that doesn't.

David B

Philosoft · 09-30-2005, 08:22 PM

I can't imagine razor-sharpness would be at all easy to maintain.

Happy Wonderer · 09-30-2005, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Typically, North American deer defend themselves against predators or other threats (e.g., humans) with their hooves more than their antlers, anyway, though their antlers can do serious damage. Their hooves can tear you up as well.

you are scaring me. There are dozens of deer around my house -- this evening I counted six inside the (obviously not working) fenced in pasture. There are a couple of large bucks around; they are pretty tame and won't go away unless you get really close to them.

Should I be more worried than I am? I must say that I have never heard of deer causing injury around here except by suicide car attacks.

hw

Jackalope · 10-01-2005, 03:16 AM

As long as you don't annoy them, you're safe enough. One of the deer attacks I saw was an idiot kid who found a rock that looked like a cookie and kept trying to offer it to the deer. Who after the third or fourth time realizing that there was no food really, got annoyed and kicked the child. "Go away and quit waving that rock in my face." If you don't corner them, trap them or frighten them, coastal deer usually aren't a problem. In fact, I know coastal deer that will walk up and mug people for their food and/or beer. They even make demanding "Gimme!" noises. But you shouldn't grab or startle even the tame ones.

Thief of Time · 10-01-2005, 03:50 AM

I suppose a club is just as potent as a sword, when its swung at you with enough force.

RBH · 10-01-2005, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief of Time

I suppose a club is just as potent as a sword, when its swung at you with enough force.

Take a close look at the hoof of a deer sometime. It's got edges more on the stabbing short sword side than the club side. It's not like a horse's hoof.

RBH

butswana · 10-01-2005, 08:03 AM

I saw a video on one of those "home video" shows of a guy who got backed into a phone booth by a deer. It was kicking the shit out of him.
There was also a 9-1-1 tape of a guy who hit a deer with his car. He scooped up what he thought was a dead deer and put it in the back seat of his car. It wasn't dead and it wanted out. This guy was trapped in his car with an injured deer in full adrenaline flight mode.

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09-30-2005, 08:22 PM	#15
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	I can't imagine razor-sharpness would be at all easy to maintain.

10-01-2005, 03:16 AM	#17
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	As long as you don't annoy them, you're safe enough. One of the deer attacks I saw was an idiot kid who found a rock that looked like a cookie and kept trying to offer it to the deer. Who after the third or fourth time realizing that there was no food really, got annoyed and kicked the child. "Go away and quit waving that rock in my face." If you don't corner them, trap them or frighten them, coastal deer usually aren't a problem. In fact, I know coastal deer that will walk up and mug people for their food and/or beer. They even make demanding "Gimme!" noises. But you shouldn't grab or startle even the tame ones.

10-01-2005, 03:50 AM	#18
Thief of Time Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 687	I suppose a club is just as potent as a sword, when its swung at you with enough force.

10-01-2005, 08:03 AM	#20
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	I saw a video on one of those "home video" shows of a guy who got backed into a phone booth by a deer. It was kicking the shit out of him. There was also a 9-1-1 tape of a guy who hit a deer with his car. He scooped up what he thought was a dead deer and put it in the back seat of his car. It wasn't dead and it wanted out. This guy was trapped in his car with an injured deer in full adrenaline flight mode.

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