Chris Weimer

I already have shown two other examples of almah being translated as parthenos. The above statement is false.

Chili

Jesus was not human nor was he Jewish. Mary was also not Jewish or she would have been a sinner too. Just Joseph was the sinner and that is why we made him patron saint of the family.

Amaleq13

Do the "liberties" create any pattern that allows inferences to be made about the preferences of the translator? IOW, any method to his madness?

Chris Weimer

Hrm, I haven't looked too much into the issue myself, but I'm sure some, if not quite a bit, were once part of the Alexandrian Hebrew text, and as far as the liberties go, it usually is to make something clear, I think. I know the Targumim are very often expansive - clarifying the text and the expense of the poetry. Perhaps it also changed to fit the beliefs of the Hellenic period - characterized by the rising of Messianism and apocalypticism (for a drive to kick out the Greeks, and later the Romans).

Phlox Pyros

This kind of rhetoric just irritates people, Joe. You obviously do not know the languages any better than anyone else here. Previously, all you did was present the obvious in presenting the definition of parthenos (which most, here, already knew) from the LS (not the "Perseus" dictionary).

When you actually understand and deal with the information I presented, feel free to post again (in a more cordial manner, perhaps).

neanis, just as the latter LXX recensions have it.

What does bethulah mean? Virgin. What translated bethulah in every place in Isaiah? parthenos. Isaiah is the context, not classical literature nor other biblical books.

Chris Weimer

You keep pointing this out, but this is a red-herring. It doesn't matter what bethulah is translated as, it matters what almah is translated as. Does the term hapax legemona not ring any bells for you?

Phlox Pyros

Of course, but I am saying that this may be an unreasonable and unecessary hapax legomen because the underlying Hebrew text used by the translator may have read bethulah (just as every other case in Isaiah). The fact that it is a hapax legomen should raise alarm bells (it usually does for most skeptics, especially with respect to Josephus and the NT), so yes it does ring bells for me.

You presented the case of parthenos translating almah in Genesis, but did you look to see what word translated the relatively rare almah elsewhere in the majority of cases? Let me know what you find.

Chris Weimer

I already told you that almah was working on my BBW for some weird reason. (I check the stemma list - it didn't contain almah, just h(lmh.) But I can already tell you that neanis was usually translated as such.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the earliest Hebrew scrolls we have, the Dead Sea Scrolls, attest to (lmh, and that parthenos has been used before to translate that.

Phlox Pyros

This is the only problem with the theory. Just because a reading no longer exists (except in a versional witness), does not mean that it never existed. It just can't be proven until and unless physical evidence from the Hebrew shows up. However, the possibility cannot be discounted (at least not without being hypocritical about evidence in Josephus and elsewhere).

Phlox Pyros

I guess I thought I might have helped you with that. Apparently my suggestions did not work for you?

Try a morphological search in the wtt.

You are right, however, the majority of cases translate almah with some form of neanis.