Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stringbean · 09-17-2011, 03:51 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by TedM

HI Tommy. I don't think it is relevant that Josephus was not alive at the same time as Christ. He was close enough to have known if he existed or not. You may want to check out the new thread on Christopher Price evidence for partial TF.

This OP is about the Matthean and Markan Jesus Christ and NOT about the forgeries in Josephus.

1. Josephus did NOT claim he knew the Matthean and Markan Jesus CHRIST of Nazareth. See ALL the works of Josephus.

2. Josephus was born about 37 CE. See "The Life of Flavius Josephus.

3. The Matthean Jesus was the Child of a Holy Ghost that walked on water, TRANSFIGURED, and was RESURRECTED. See gMatthew

4. The Markan Jesus walked on water, TRANSFIGURED and was RESURRECTED. See gMark

5. Josephus claimed that the Jews EXPECTED a Jewish Messianic ruler sometime around the Jewish War c70 CE. See Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4

6. Josephus claimed that VESPASIAN was the PREDICTED Messianc ruler in Hebrew Scriptures. See "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4

7. In gMatthew and gMark, It was Peter who FIRST WHO claimed Jesus was Christ . See Matthew 16 and Mark 8.

8. In gMatthew and gMark, Jesus COMMANDED his disciples NOT to tell anyone he was Christ. See Matthew 16 and Mark 8

9. In gMatthew and gMark, Jesus was regarded as a prophet by the JEWS. See Matthew 16 and Mark 8.

10. Josephus wrote NOTHING about a Jewish Messianic ruler named Jesus of Nazareth. See ALL the works of Josephus.

The writings of gMatthew and gMark agree with History. Jesus Christ was UNKNOWN.

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The writings of gMatthew and gMark agree with History. Jesus Christ was UNKNOWN.

It may just be me but I am not sure what your driving at? Forgive me I have not read the whole thread.

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HI Tommy. I don't think it is relevant that Josephus was not alive at the same time as Christ. He was close enough to have known if he existed or not. You may want to check out the new thread on Christopher Price evidence for partial TF.

The Josephus reference to a jesus in Ant 18 was forged by a later hand, parts of it anyway. Euseibus the great church historian went to great lengths to insure the faith was secure. And besides that Josephus wrote volumes on obscure people yet only a small paragraph on a man that was suppose to save the world...

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He was close enough to have known if he existed or not.

Close enough yes, to know if he existed or not is another story. Josephus can hardly be considered eyewitness testimony to a jesus since in all of his writings he never once asserts that he actually saw this jesus.

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This OP is about the Matthean and Markan Jesus Christ and NOT about the forgeries in Josephus.

May not be but your continued reference to Josephus makes it seem that way.

aa5874 · 09-17-2011, 04:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Stringbean

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

[ The writings of gMatthew and gMark agree with History. Jesus Christ was UNKNOWN.

It may just be me but I am not sure what your driving at? Forgive me I have not read the whole thread...

What!!! I will NOT forgive you unless you either read the whole thread or retract your statement.

Stringbean · 09-17-2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

It may just be me but I am not sure what your driving at? Forgive me I have not read the whole thread...

What!!! I will NOT forgive you unless you either read the whole thread or retract your statement.

Thats cool...in the process of reviewing the thread....

aa5874 · 09-17-2011, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

It may just be me but I am not sure what your driving at? Forgive me I have not read the whole thread...

What!!! I will NOT forgive you unless you either read the whole thread or retract your statement.

Thats cool...in the process of reviewing the thread....

Well, if what you say is true then you are forgiven.

I detest when people try to argue with me and have ZERO idea of what they are talking about.

aa5874 · 09-17-2011, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In gMatthew and gMark the Jews did NOT recognize the character called Jesus as Christ. In fact, it is recorded in the Canonised gMatthew and gMark that Jesus did NOT want his disciples to tell a single person ( no man) that he was Christ.

The canonical gospels are not reliable sources. You have no reliable source as a starting point.

True. Using the gospels as a credible source for a jesus is useless they are not eyewitness accounts of anything.

Your statement AGREES with History.

The writings of antiquity from Philo, Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus and Pliny the younger suggest that Jesus Christ was UNKNOWN as stated in gMatthew and gMark.

Now, you should be Also Aware that gMatthew and gMark AGREE with History when they mentioned a character called Pilate and Pontius Pilate, a Governor of Judea.

Both Philo and Josephus mentioned a character called Pontius Pilate as a Governor or procurator of Judea.

J-D · 09-18-2011, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In gMatthew and gMark the Jews did NOT recognize the character called Jesus as Christ. In fact, it is recorded in the Canonised gMatthew and gMark that Jesus did NOT want his disciples to tell a single person ( no man) that he was Christ.

The canonical gospels are not reliable sources. You have no reliable source as a starting point.

True. Using the gospels as a credible source for a jesus is useless they are not eyewitness accounts of anything.

Your statement AGREES with History.

The writings of antiquity from Philo, Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus and Pliny the younger suggest that Jesus Christ was UNKNOWN as stated in gMatthew and gMark.

Now, you should be Also Aware that gMatthew and gMark AGREE with History when they mentioned a character called Pilate and Pontius Pilate, a Governor of Judea.

Both Philo and Josephus mentioned a character called Pontius Pilate as a Governor or procurator of Judea.

Those are not reliable historical sources.

spin · 09-18-2011, 01:58 AM

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Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Both Philo and Josephus mentioned a character called Pontius Pilate as a Governor or procurator of Judea.

Those are not reliable historical sources.

Why not? They were around at the appropriate time and had the opportunity to check the information. Both better time-wise than any other historical source. You seem to be killing the grass as well as the weeds. You don't deal with an argument from silence by shooting people who didn't see Jesus.

Stringbean · 09-18-2011, 04:30 AM

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Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Those are not reliable historical sources.

Why not? They were around at the appropriate time and had the opportunity to check the information. Both better time-wise than any other historical source. You seem to be killing the grass as well as the weeds. You don't deal with an argument from silence by shooting people who didn't see Jesus.

The Tacitus Annals 15:44 is only a reference to christians who are claiming a jesus as their saviour Tacitus is only confirming that christians were in Rome at the time.

Philo,was the most renowned writer of the Jewish race.
Born before the start of the Christian era.
Lived long after the time Jesus was suppose to have died.
His home was near Jerusalem.
Philo would surely have recorded his miracles, ministry and crucifixion but he did not.
He would have been familiar with Herods massacre.

SuetoniusThe Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius, writing around 120 CE, states:

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"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Emperor Claudius in 49 CE] expelled them from Rome." (Claudius 5.25.4)

This also fails to connect an historical jesus as well.

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"Chrestus" is the correct Latin form of an actual Greek name, and is not obviously a mispelling of "Christus", meaning Christ.
The passage seems to imply that there was actually someone named Chrestus at Rome at the time. This rules out a reference to Jesus.
Even if Suetonius is referring to Christians in Rome, this only confirms the existence of Christians, not the existence of Jesus. There is no doubt that there were Christians in Rome during the first century CE--this of course does NOT imply that Jesus actually lived during the first half of this century.

Thus, Suetonius fails to confirm the historicity of Jesus.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...er/hojfaq.html

And we all know the Josephus reference does not hold water.

Pliny the younger,
Pliny's letters to Trajan were not a conformation of a jesus only that Pliny was in a pickle about what to do with christians?

So the only thing any of these historians are actually confirming is that there were christians in Rome and Jerusalem.

andrewcriddle · 09-18-2011, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Why not? They were around at the appropriate time and had the opportunity to check the information. Both better time-wise than any other historical source. You seem to be killing the grass as well as the weeds. You don't deal with an argument from silence by shooting people who didn't see Jesus.

The Tacitus Annals 15:44 is only a reference to christians who are claiming a jesus as their saviour Tacitus is only confirming that christians were in Rome at the time.

Philo,was the most renowned writer of the Jewish race.
Born before the start of the Christian era.
Lived long after the time Jesus was suppose to have died.
His home was near Jerusalem.
Philo would surely have recorded his miracles, ministry and crucifixion but he did not.
He would have been familiar with Herods massacre.

Philo lived in Alexandria in Egypt. He occasionally visited Judea. He tells us very little about events in Judea during his lifetime. (For example he never mentions the name of a contemporary Jewish high priest.) His account of controversial actions by Pontius Pilate contains less incidents than that of Josephus. He tells us almost nothing about Herod the Great.

I am not sure where specifically one would expect Philo to mention Jesus.

Andrew Criddle

Stringbean · 09-18-2011, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

The Tacitus Annals 15:44 is only a reference to christians who are claiming a jesus as their saviour Tacitus is only confirming that christians were in Rome at the time.

Philo,was the most renowned writer of the Jewish race.
Born before the start of the Christian era.
Lived long after the time Jesus was suppose to have died.
His home was near Jerusalem.
Philo would surely have recorded his miracles, ministry and crucifixion but he did not.
He would have been familiar with Herods massacre.

Philo lived in Alexandria in Egypt. He occasionally visited Judea. He tells us very little about events in Judea during his lifetime. (For example he never mentions the name of a contemporary Jewish high priest.) His account of controversial actions by Pontius Pilate contains less incidents than that of Josephus.

I am not sure where specifically one would expect Philo to mention Jesus.

Andrew Criddle

Hi Andrew. I agree.

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