Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tom Sawyer · 01-25-2012, 12:18 PM

Crucifixion's a doddle. Jesus should have been stabbed.

sotto voce · 01-25-2012, 12:25 PM

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Originally Posted by mrsonic

Quote:

But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

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they pierced jesus and forgot about what they claimed in mark and matthews account, "truly this was the son of god"

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Can we see a quote of that?

you christians say that john witnessed the crucifixion. if he could finnish off your god by having a pagan roman pierce his side, then why was it difficult for him to include
"truly this was the son of god" ?

No quote.

steve_bnk · 01-25-2012, 12:29 PM

The scenario is not exactly new. The human ofrfspring of god and a human dies in the act o saving the tribe/group and goes to be with his divine father.

Greek mythology is it not.

I don't have the link, I read a paper that compared the Jesus myth across cultures and preceding times.

Mixing gods and humans

Achilles
Hercules

James Brown · 01-25-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Ah, another puzzle. Pilate wants Jesus dead, and when he's told that Jesus is dead, he's surprised to hear that Jesus is dead.

Pilate is surprised at Jesus dying so quickly.

Crucifixion was an intentionally slow means of execution. One could linger in pain for more than a day.

Andrew Criddle

That's the problem. Having put Jesus up on a cross with the intention of having him linger there for a long time, up to and including offering him liquids to prolong his agony, they then decide that he needs to hurry up and die before sundown. So when Pilate finds out he's dead before sundown, Pilate's reaction isn't "Good, we made the deadline," it's "What? So soon? How can he be dead so quickly?"

Doesn't make sense.

Chili · 01-25-2012, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

[
That's the problem. Having put Jesus up on a cross with the intention of having him linger there for a long time, up to and including offering him liquids to prolong his agony, they then decide that he needs to hurry up and die before sundown. So when Pilate finds out he's dead before sundown, Pilate's reaction isn't "Good, we made the deadline," it's "What? So soon? How can he be dead so quickly?"

Doesn't make sense.

Well it is there on purpose to show the difference between comeday and tragedy wherein the rising action is the same as to say: I hope he lasts long enough..

steve_bnk · 01-25-2012, 01:09 PM

The gospels are written in fictional form of the day. It actually reduces to an action adventure story as we would frame it today.

It is a tradegdy with a surprise ending. Image an ancient literate reader starting on page one not knowing anything about the story.

mrsonic · 01-25-2012, 01:35 PM

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“Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.d

38The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.e 39And when the centurion,f who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died,* he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!

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“Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.d

51At that moment the curtain of the templee was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks splitf 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and* went into the holy cityg and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guardingh Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”i

so these guys were terrified and then decided to pierce the side of the christian god? be honest, who reading mark on its own would come to the conclusion that jesus was PIERCED?

stephan huller · 01-25-2012, 03:30 PM

The question of why Jesus was ORIGINALLY understood to have died so quickly may well go back to the tradition that the divine portion 'left him' very soon after being put on the cross. 'My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me.' If you read Against Praxeas there is much more to this tradition than just these words. I'm not even sure that the guy on the cross was Jesus or someone else who 'took on' Jesus's gait.

Vorkosigan · 01-25-2012, 04:34 PM

Why the crucifixion is fictional?

1. Everything leading up to it is.

2. Everything that follows is.

la70119 · 01-25-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Oddities of the crucifixion.

1. The Jews aren't allowed to kill Jesus without inducing the Romans' permission, but they killed John the Baptist with no trouble.

They stoned Stephen to death with no problem, either.

Quote:

2. The Romans are "Merchants of Death" yet keenly sensitive to Jewish sensibilities regarding festivals, how long bodies can be hung on crosses, etc.

Exactly. And Pilate was so respectful of the Jews and their laws and customs, the Jews had to carry out multiple demonstrations against him, and even send an embassy to Tiberius Caesar to force Pilate to remove shields that had "Divus Iulius", "Divus Augustus", and "Divus Tiberius" on them from the praetorium in Jerusalem.

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3. If the Romans agreed that Jesus ought to be dead by sundown, they would have impaled him with a spear. Instead, they hang him on a cross and label his crime, to serve as an example to others. To prolong the ordeal, they offer liquids to Jesus to slake thirst.

And it wasn't a typical execution gallows with a support for the body underneath the crotch and/or up where the sun don't shine either. Despite Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen all vouching in favor of the typical variety, Christian tradition says it was the type of cross that Romans called a tropaeum that they used to deify deceased Emperors with (Justin Martyr 1 Apology 55). With the titulus bearing the message "King of the Jews" they were treating a convicted criminal as a God.

What they gave him to drink, OTOH, was vinegar, which would further dry out a thirsty, dehydrated person. It serves as a diuretic.

Quote:

4. Then they decide he needs to be dead quickly, because the sun is about to go down, which would make some Jews upset. So they go to break his legs so that he'll die quickly. But they don't do so, because he's already dead. So then they stab him to make sure he was dead.

5. So it turns out that the Romans did indeed impale Jesus with a spear, but they had to go through the long complicated crucifixion process to do so, instead of doing it the simple way. Makes no sense.

Yes, and one of the ways was that they could have simply parked his ass on top of the end tip of a pointed stake and let him slide down on it. You're right, it makes no sense.

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01-25-2012, 12:18 PM	#31
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Crucifixion's a doddle. Jesus should have been stabbed.

01-25-2012, 12:29 PM	#33
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	The scenario is not exactly new. The human ofrfspring of god and a human dies in the act o saving the tribe/group and goes to be with his divine father. Greek mythology is it not. I don't have the link, I read a paper that compared the Jesus myth across cultures and preceding times. Mixing gods and humans Achilles Hercules

01-25-2012, 01:09 PM	#36
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	The gospels are written in fictional form of the day. It actually reduces to an action adventure story as we would frame it today. It is a tradegdy with a surprise ending. Image an ancient literate reader starting on page one not knowing anything about the story.

01-25-2012, 03:30 PM	#38
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The question of why Jesus was ORIGINALLY understood to have died so quickly may well go back to the tradition that the divine portion 'left him' very soon after being put on the cross. 'My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me.' If you read Against Praxeas there is much more to this tradition than just these words. I'm not even sure that the guy on the cross was Jesus or someone else who 'took on' Jesus's gait.

01-25-2012, 04:34 PM	#39
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Why the crucifixion is fictional? 1. Everything leading up to it is. 2. Everything that follows is.

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